Comments for I Thought Evil Was Bad?: Page 1

There is no way I want to fully get into this conversation. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and I will leave it at that. But I just want to say that scientists aren't all that perfect either. There are many instances of scientist bending the data to fit their hypotheses and what not. Every person is biased. Every single one of us. Though we try not to let it rule our lives, it sometimes can take control of people. Everyone has an opinion, and that can often get in the way of cold, hard facts. It's just human nature. You can't say that every scientist and researcher is completely neutural. That simply isn't true. Some let their personal opinions influence them more than others, but calling the scientific world an unbiased entity is a blanket statement that cannot account for everyone. People don't want to be wrong. People are deceptive. Of course some people will contort their findings to their own liking. And why are we even discussing this particular subject anyway. This is a ghost website. This site is based on a topic that is on the outskirts of mainstream science. Most scientists believe there are no such things as ghosts, demons, or the afterlife. But that doesn't stop us from discussing it, does it? Just a thought...

Lou - D/A said that research and science are impartial. Not the historians of the world. Those people are bound to be biased. Most don't want their home country seen in a negative light. So, they put on their rose colored glasses and speak of all of the good things; and a few of the bad for good measure.

DA,
Now you are getting a little out there. Men who write history books never have an agenda...? Wow, you lost me there, big time.

Lou

There in lies the difference, DA.

Faith is powerful, no matter what your faith is in, but I would choose what I pray to on a regular basis when the chips are down, so I won't need a refresher when I need him by my side. My faith does not require me to summon God or come to him, he's with me always. Anyone who has to "come to the Lord" in a time of need, needs to ask themselves why there is distance between them and God, in the first place.
If you want to use plum pudding, you might want to start declaring your servitude now. Conviction isn't a "just add water" process...well, unless its instant pudding.

Lou

princessLotus: If you can't say anything because there are too many stupid people on this post, why did you bother saying that you can't say anything? Why waste your time coming on here to call people names instead of participating in the discussion or ignoring it?

One more thing I wanted to say Lou, from my perspective...yes, the history books and research documents were created and written by the 'corrupt' minds of men. But the difference is that research and science are impartial. There are scientists who belong to organized religions, however contradictory it might seem without taking the time to understand their beliefs. Scientific or analytical research is generally conducted without a specific motivation other than to procure information and better understand the world. Religious documentation is written with the intention of converting people to a belief system.

It is like the difference between a persuasive essay and a research paper.

Lou, I cannot state that this is a fact, but a theory of mine when it comes to people 'rebuking demons' in the name of Jesus.

I think it works because of how much belief people put in the name. On a lot of stories here I have read about instances where people used Jesus' name and it did not work. I believe that when people cast out negative entites, they could scream 'plum pudding' if they wanted to, and it would have the same effect if they put the energy and confidence into it.

Lou - I think you misinterpreted what I said. I don't consider myself a resource of information. As it has been said by those with true wisdom, "It is the wise man who admits that he knows nothing." Plato and Socrates never claimed to have all of the answers. Like them, I just putting forth ideas, theories, and premises. It's called critical thinking. The purpose, telos, is to get others to think, ponder, imagine, and go on their own quest for knowledge rather than blindly accepting that what the "powers that be" have sold...um...that is... Told us as gospel.

You say that you are not sharing your experiences to teach others. The thing is, you see, that's not exactly how things work in places such as YGS. Readers learn from others' stories. I know that I've learned a lot. Do I accept it all as gospel? No. I am skeptical after all. I do, nevertheless, read these stories with an open mind. True or not, I have gained knowledge from these stories. Knowledge that I can use to construct more theories and premises that I hope to test some day.

Rook - I appreciate your candor and respect your beliefs. Like I said, I'm not a resource of knowledge. I'm not pontificating. I'm just offering ideas, theories, and premises. It is merely my hope to get people thinking rather than condemning me because the theories that I set forth don't match their beliefs.

TID, I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I see things from a Catholic teachings point of view, you from a philisophical. When it comes down to it we don't really know for sure because we are here on earth, and the spirtual beings are in their own realm. So unless the two worlds combine we won't know until we become spirtual being ourselves. And even then we might find out that everyone is wrong.

I here that, Brother.

I don't get the logic behind "the bible was written by men, therefore it is corrupt", when every book known to man, was also written by men; but contain somehow the tried and true meaning to life? I know men wrote the bible, and I know that those men's interpretaions of God's word are what is on those pages.
"The source of my (and others I'm sure) beliefs is philosophical; not theological. It's not going to be in a book. These are abstract ideas formed from theories and premises just like they were in the times of Plato and Socrates."
I've also got a problem with quoting myself as a resource of information. Everyone has had experiences in life and those life experiences are what make us an authority on our own lives, not others. I haven't shared my experiences with others to teach them; I've shared them to get other opinions so that I can continue to learn from them.

Gee, now that I think about it... All the atrocities of man quoted in this thread have been by people who considered themselves the authority as well. I'll lock the clock tower entrance, just in case.

Lou

Lou,

Now there is something I don't get called everyday...LoL...

I just don't understand how people can 'twist' teachings about 'peace, love and understanding' into...Kill, Kill, Hate, Hate, Murder, Murder Mutilate.

But there are people who do this and yet call me 'crazy' or 'blind' for not 'seeing' things their way...

Now of course all that really happens when they go 'Preaching Hell Fire and Damnation' is the very people they are trying to 'reach' close their ears and turn their backs because they 'know' better in their hearts and that somehow the 'true message' got 'lost in translation'.

Respectfully,

Rook

Rook,
Ever get sick of being so sensible? Can't you just throw some garbage around and clean it up later, like the rest of us? Thank you very much for contributing to this post.

TID,
After all of this nonsense, it all comes down to a name? I don't care what we call them. Are there good angels and bad angels, are there demons and angels? I don't care what we call them... I never have. So we agree there are non-human negative forces that plague man? I am at a loss that when it comes down to brass tacks, this discussion is now about what we call the things that do evil.

One note though; from every thing I've read and heard of, there has only been one cure to dispell negative human and inhuman forces, and it works across the board. Nobody prays to the Easter Bunny when hell comes knocking... And if he was just a man who walked the earth and did good things; why would they cower at his name?

Lou

TruthInDarkness,

I understand completely where you are coming from. You are referring to a 'race' of entities that exist on a different plane than us... A 'race' that has just as many differences as human beings do...

I believe the problem arises from the word 'Demon' being used... No matter what the 'root' of the word may have meant in the past people have come to understand it under it's 'Religious' context in this day and age.

Now I draw a distinction in my personal belief's that may not be 'drawn' by even my own Church. Just look at my last comment to see what I'm talking about. Having said this I am Christian, I believe in 'Heavenly Father, His Son and the Holy Ghost.' This is not a 'card' that gives me permission to 'bash' or 'attempt to bash' people into believing as I do.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can twist 'scriptures' in such an manner that they feel they have a right to 'hurt' others because they don't have the same religious beliefs as themselves... This includes Wiccans, Muslims, Christians... Whatever your belief system... Forcing it on someone else is just plain WRONG... I quoted Brigham Young on this point not so long ago and I even used one of the basic tenants of Wicca to make this point so I'm not going to repeat them at this time.

Respectfully,

Rook

This is the most recockulus discussion ever. Makes me sick to my stomache. I can't even say anything because there are too many retarded people on this post. I just hope this kid can shake these creepy things & soon. Demons are not & will never be good in any way shape or form, don't be an idiot. I apologize but I can't even pretend to be kind on this SH*T. Good luck to yuh.

~LSD~

cosmogal926 - What's more evil than the systematic genocide of 6 million Jews and thousands of Albanians? OK. I guess the scientific experiments performed on them could be considered more cruel, and thus evil, than merely murdering them. So, aside from energy life form versus physical life form, what exactly is the difference between demons and humans again? Free will you say? I'm not going to say outright that you are wrong. Yet, it really doesn't make sense from a philosophical point of view. Heck, even an amoeba has free will. To the best of my knowledge, all living creatures have free will. A rabbit can choose to sit still and allow an owl to catch it or it can choose to run (hop) and hide. A coyote can decide whether or not scavanging a particular meal is too dangerous. Going to the spirit realm... Allegedly, an angel can choose to be good or evil. Arguable, for those who believe in god as a conscious being, even "he" can decide whether to be good or evil. Otherwise, why did god wipe out the dinosaurs? Did "he" get bored? Again, assuming that god is a conscious being for a moment, it seems awfully mean and evil for "him" to have wiped out millions of creatures just because it was "his" desire. I'm rather fond of dinosaurs. I'd like to learn much more about them than science will likely tell us anytime soon. Drifting back to the topic at hand... I want to learn as much as I can about the spirit realm and other dimensions. Yes, I'm on a quest for knowledge and I hope to put my premises and theories to the test. I'd love to come face to face with all sorts of beings that are considered myths by most. I want to learn about what the "powers that be" have intentionally distracted people away from and hidden or destroyed any references toward. I am a curious one indeed. While I hope not to be foolish enough to "open Pandora's box", I do hope to learn and experience things that relative few, if any, have ever experienced.

Oh, I've been so tied up responding to this, that, and the other that I forgot to mention one of my basic premises. People are... No, no, no! Not that one! Aargh! Why must that one always come to mind? Umm, yes. It is my belief that "the devil" is merely the personification of the human potential for evil. That's all for now. I must get some sleep.

Lou and Rook - I'm not attacking Christianity. I have a distaste for most (if not all) religions. As is evident from what I've previously stated, albeit somewhat implicitly, religions have led to the demise of more people than they have helped; especially when you look at the big picture and not just this decade or that decade. Regarding demonic influences... OK. You've experienced one. You have one up on me... Maybe. That said, are you going to judge a whole species by one (or even a few) of its kind? That's like me stating that all French people are arses just because I've met a few that are. I've also met a few people from France who were quite friendly. Or someone stating that all dogs are bad just because one bit them.

Although tempting, I'm not going to get into Christ here. This isn't the place. Let's just say that I have a different idea of what god is than Christians, Jews, and even Muslims. Thus, I do not believe there was (or will be) a messiah. So, there you go. I've stated my piece without getting tangled into a bible discussion.

Dispell the notion that demons are not [? I believe you meant to omit that word] destructive and evil? I'd like to throw that one back at you. Prove to me that ALL demons are destructive and evil. Along that line, prove to me that ALL angels are good (excluding those that might have "fallen"). I believe in god as an infinite source of positive energy. Not so much as a conscious being. Thus, I don't so much believe in miracles. Spiritual guardians looking after us maybe. People praying for someone's health to take a turn for the better quite possibly pools positive energy around the person. Between that, the person's will to live, and spiritual guardians pitching in as well, people can and do survive dire circumstances. I think that the REAL answers to the meaning of our physical lives on Earth or some other distant planet should we choose to go there lies in the spirit realm and the other dimensions that exist. There are a number of known dimensions. Some say 11. Some say 13. These dimensions are just slightly "out of phase" with our own. That's why many beings can go from one to another so easily.

The source of my (and others I'm sure) beliefs is philosophical; not theological. It's not going to be in a book. These are abstract ideas formed from theories and premises just like they were in the times of Plato and Socrates. I rather like the idea of Plato's forms dimension. I think there's a lot of truth to that. Yet, like other dimensions that cannot be seen, such as the spirit realm, we cannot show physical proof that it exists. Some things just aren't tangible. Ideas are among those things. When we "see" an idea in our head, is it really coming from our brain? Or is it coming from another place? Perhaps the forms dimension?

Jav - Let's put the comparison of us to demons aside for a moment. Let's just look at humans. Go back as far as written history will take us. That's what? Maybe 3000 "BC"? A little over 5000 years ago. Hmmm... No, let's go back a little further. Say, 20, 000 years or so. There was more than one species of hominid on the planet. There were modern Homo Sapiens, Homo Neanderthalensis, Cro-Magnon (Homo Sapiens "Archaic"), and Home Florensiensis. There is still some debate over the naming of Cro-Magnon and Homo Florensiensis. Also, somewhat as to when those 2 species went extinct. Although it is likely that there was some integration among the species, it is also likely that Homo Sapiens killed the other species. To make matters worse, Homo Sapiens also "stole" their food. If Homo Sapiens are good by nature, why didn't they help the other species instead of hurting them? Why didn't they pool their knowledge? Share food? No! Homo Sapiens would have none of that now would they? They must come out on top regardless of who gets hurt in the process. We caused the extinction of the other hominid species as well as hundreds of species of animals by either killing them or infringing (including removing by fire or axe) on their habitat. Let's progress forward through the ages a bit to that 5000 year mark. Some levels of social status started to form. The "wise" ones and leaders, often one and the same, through their own fears and ignorance with regard to nature concocted the idea of gods. There is another take on this. One that includes aliens demanding sacrifices and other things in return for use and teachings of their technology. This is not a joke. Watch the Ancient Aliens series on History Channel. I'm not saying to believe the stuff as gospel, but go into it with an open mind. Ideas of aliens aside, humans have been at war with one another ever since there's been enough of us to build an army. There were countless wars (or battles in general) in biblical and pre-biblical times. There have been many thousands since then. Has there been a decade that's gone by without a war, battle, or other type of senseless killing spree in the last 5000 years? I can't think of a decade in the past 90 years where one group is not fighting another. There were certainly plenty of wars in the 1700's and 1800's as well.

For beings who are supposed to be good by nature, we certainly seem quite bloodthirsty. Move to modern times and set killing aside for a moment. We have "white collar" wars going on. Excecutives from one company, figuratively, stepping on the face of the executives of a competing company. Sometimes both do fairly well and become rich rivals. Other times, the company with deeper pockets wins the battle and leaves the competitor going bankrupt and their employees jobless. The Border's book store chain is a great current example of that. Right now, the President and other politicians are playing with people's lives; literally and figuratively. So, maybe we're a slight bit more civilized in recent years, but we certainly have never "fallen" as some teachings would have you believe. We've scarcely "stood up" in the first place.

And, no, it's really not about who's going to get the last word. At least that's not my intention. I have telos. I'm a philosopher; not a politician. You won't find definitive answers to this discussion in books. If there were books that had answers, they were burned long ago and the knowledge has been lost. That is why we are here presenting theories and premises.

This comment is directed at no one in particular. I'm just timing how long it takes for my comments to disappear. It's become a game for me now.

Jav

5...4...3...2...1...Bye Bye!

Aggression unopposed becomes a contagious disease.
Jimmy Carter

Bahahah! I'm hilarious!

Lou,

I can agree to disagree with you. All I was saying is that was the "vibe" I got from your comments--and I think I will just leave it at that. I have no issues with you.

As far as the whole D/A and Javelina pissing contest goes, I will just throw this out there: as I have said about half a million times by now, I have nothing against Javelina and I do not understand for the life of me how there are people out there who are oblivious to the way she sneaks jabs in there to try and provoke me. Hell, I used to be a big fan of hers, but when her true colors shone through at the first moment I disagreed with a statement or two of hers, I realized what type of person I was really dealing with. So I cut her and everything to do with her out as others can attest to my leaving the Facebook page because of some drama she dragged me into, and she took it to heart and has been trying desperately to goad me into arguments ever since.

Since I do not like being "that guy" and speaking in a referential, non-commital way about someone, I will say this to you directly Javelina, straight up:

Leave me alone. Stop trying to pick fights with me, stop trying to add me on Facebook like you have done twice since I removed you, and get over this notion you have that I am only here to contradict you. I have not, do not, and will not ever have anything to do with the problems you have with other people. I will not further address you, I will ignore every comment of yours, and I respectfully ask you to stop making your little jabs and references to me in return. Go find someone else to play bully with because frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn.

Also, I do not really do not care about having the last word. Here is the forum, the floor is all yours and the last word belongs to you if you so desire. I have said my piece and I am done.

DA, never said you were dumb. I think I agree with most of what you have said here. What I don't agree with, is the notion that bad angels and the devil were created to keep us in line... I do believe they are waved at us by organized religion to keep us in line. Evil exists, and it is beyond the human realm... I never said you have to believe everything I say, or even listen to it for that matter. Just like there are bad people, there are bad spirits... Considering they were people, it makes sense they would not all become good after death.
There is some lifeforce that is not of humanity... Some of it is good, some of it is bad... Can we agree on that...? I don't care what we call them. Quite frankly, I'm looking to get the bad ones renamed, Smurfs... Those little blue bastards are evil.

Lou

Lou,

In some instances yes, I believe I was dealing with human spirits. In others, not so much. The hotel situation--I do not think that was a human spirit. I think it was a negative spirit. I think it preyed upon our fears and angers to upset us, and fed off of us that way. In the atrium story, I think the woman I saw was a human spirit, but the wolf most surely was not. I do not know if it was really a wolf spirit or just appeared that way to me because it was something I was familiar with.

I believe there are BOTH in our universe. Spirits, which have been called demons because we do not understand them or their intentions, and because having an enemy unites us (aka, organizes us... Organized religion... See where I'm going with this?) I do not think any religion NEEDS the Devil or demons... Those things are not essential to creating a religion founded on love, compassion, family, and the desire to be a good person. They are just examples of things not to be, and we have enough living people who are bad that we can use as those examples. I think the concept of demons and Satan are oudated ones used to scare people into staying in line, because let's face it, being a good person sometimes goes against our nature. It is not human nature to look out for others, it is a cultural choice. The human condition seeks self-preservation first. But if we fear something, we comply out of fear.

I think demons and angels as separate forces do not exist. I think they are one and the same force. They are just spirits, good, bad and neutral. Just like us, they require sustenance and they get it differently. Ones inclined toward negativity feed off of environments of anger, sadness and fear. Positive spirits thrive in environments with big families, friendship, and a general sense of positivity.

Demons are good, angels are bad. Angels are good, demons are bad. It is all the same thing. One is not better than the other. That is my belief--whether or not that is reality, well... When I am proven wrong, then I will know I am wrong. But who has the right to say that they know without a doubt that demons are all evil, angels are all good, and there is no opposite or in between?

My and TruthInDarkness' statements: we do not know for certain, but this is our theory.

Yours and Jav's statements: No, you guys are dumb. This is how it is and you are wrong.

Do you understand where I am coming from here?

DA,
We are talking apples and oranges.

I have read your stories and they are awesome experiences, some of my favorites on this site... I think you know that from my responses to them.

But what you have always described, or at least, I always assumed you meant you were dealing with, were negative human spirits.

So, I am very confused now... What is a demon again? Because although we obviously differ on their intent, I at least thought we were talking about the same animal. I want to know how you know what you know.

Quite frankly, I'm a little surprised that this argument has continued based on what is now a "loose term" for spirits. The only people I know who think every spirit is a demon are the fire and brimstone, old testament crowd...

If you want to use this term for spirits, its ok with me... But it seems to contradict our concerted effort to shoot down the demon-card on a lot of stories we've both read and commented on.

Lou

Lou,

The point was to bring forth factual material on the origin of the TERM--not the species, which I was not talking about--based on a quick Wikipedia search (meaning, it is not hard to find this material). Better understanding of the term is what leads me to my experience with the species.

My belief, in plain ol' English, is that demons are not evil creatures but simply spirits with good and bad inclinations. If you want to read about my experiences with spirits then feel free to browse my stories. My point is that the term "demon" is a loose term. The term refers to spirits in general, which I have had experience with, yes. I have had experiences with negative or evil entity or entities, which harassed my fiance and I in a hotel room we stayed in. I had my experiences with opening doors, strange sounds, appiritions, extreme feelings of fear and/or despair without logical foundation accompanied by the feeling of a close presence, etc. I could go on and on. But will I attribute the bad things to demons? No. You are asking for proof of something that cannot be proven.

So let me ask you then, how is it that you decidde your experiences are precisely with angels? What factual evidence do you have that there are two separate species, one inherently good and one inherently evil?

And I have no interest in going back and forth with any one person in particular. I am simply addressing anyone who seems to have a contrary statement without an explained or given meaning. TruthInDarkness may be right or wrong with his beliefs... Just as I may be, just as you may be. But it makes more sense to me why he believes the way he does when his beliefs are based on simple logic rather than a biased opinion founded by a particular religion.

Hence the username, I guess? Keep us abreast of the Minnion News, DA.
While I appreciate your dedication to research, I wish we could learn of some actual personal experiences with these beings, from those who condone them. I have an encyclopedia, so I don't need it regurgitated to me. I want to know why, as in, the life experiences which have brought you to this place of acceptance of these beings... It can't all be from books, right?
I've asked TID, now I'm asking you... Please provide us with information that dispells the notion that demons are not destructive and evil... I believe in God because I have seen miracles. I trust in the Lord because he provides me strength, in my opinion. Just like you, I want to know the meaning of life on this earth and the spiritual realm. So share something that isn't from a history/theology book... Which by the way, were all written by men with the same flaws the prophets had when they wrote the Bible.
As much as I appreciate the tit-for-tat you and Jav enjoy so much; I can pee higher than both of you on the tree the two have you have been circling for the past month... Without standing on a ladder, so let's call it a draw... I see the whole "definition" argument and we all have seen enough to know that is not what it is all about.
We believe in God and his Word because we see it in action, we've seen it work. Please provide us with the source of your beliefs... Someone as intelligent as you cannot be strictly and so vehemently dedicated to disproving something, without proof of a legitimate alternative. Correct?

Ignorant Lou

Jav - the point was to clarify your statement:

"Why do you think they're called "demons" anyway? The name itself denotes evil."

That is not a true statement. Whereas it may be true for YOU, and others may share your beliefs out of ignorance, it is not true for the origins of the word but a stigma attached to it for religious reasons. The word has been changed to mean something different.

Some Christian denominations teach that demons are the leagues of angels that "fell", the ones that followed Lucifer when he rebelled against the concept of servitude. Now, I understand that not all denominations agree with that teaching. But if angels have free will (enough for some of them to go with Lucifer), then I think that they have the ability to be evil just as much as they can be good. However, if you are simply calling evil spirits demons and good spirits angels, I guess that makes sense in a sort of American English-borrowing-from-other-cultures-and-languages-type way. But the original term "demon" did not refer to evil spirits, it simply referred to spirits. It was the Bible that first introduced the idea that all demons were evil.

In Pre-Islamic Arabia, the concept of Jinn is very similar to TruthInDarkness' idea of demons. A Jinn can be good or evil. They have very human attributes (eat, drink, sleep, procreate) and are spirits that coexist with mankind. Heck, in the Hebrew bible, demons were actually under the control of God and did his bidding.

D/A,
Wonderfully stated. And very informative as it pertains to word origin. I love to learn!
However, it doesn't elevate the species to anything that can be considered an equal to man, in my opinion.
Or am I missing he point once again?

Jav

A little fun fact:

The original neutral Greek word "daimon" does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine (Hellenistic and New Testament Greek) and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root, originally intended to denote a spirit or spiritual being.

Ancient Greek daimon is a word for "spirit" or "divine power", much like the Latin genius or numen. The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives the etymology of the Greek word as from the verb daiesthai "to divide, distribute." The Greek conception of a daimon notably appears in the works of Plato, where it describes the divine inspiration of Socrates. To distinguish the classical Greek concept from its later Christian interpretation, it is usually anglicized as either daemon or daimon rather than demon.

The Greek term does not have any connotations of evil or malevolence. In fact, Eudaimon, literally "good-spiritedness", is a term for "happiness". The term first acquired its now-current evil connotations in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, informed by the mythology of the ancient Semitic religions. This connotation was inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament. The medieval and neo-medieval conception of a "demon" in Western civilization (see the Medieval grimoire called the Ars Goetia) derives seamlessly from the ambient popular culture of Late (Roman) Antiquity. Greco-Roman concepts of daemons that passed into Christian culture are discussed in the entry daemon, though it should be duly noted that the term referred only to a spiritual force, not a malevolent supernatural being. The Hellenistic "daemon" eventually came to include many Semitic and Near Eastern gods as evaluated by Christianity.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Demon

TID, I can see where you are coming from and respect your theory, but I just want to point out a few things as respectful as I can. Yes, humans can be evil. It is proven in history, and every day on the news. "Evil" in my opinion is a relative term it's something dependent upon external conditions for its specific nature. For example: all those incidents you listed that had to do with human on human crimes. They all had a purpose, as barbaric and horrific as they were it all started with an influence.

Where does the evil come from? It comes from ignorance, fear, hate, and loathing. All the same characteristics as demons. Now the difference is that demons are not human, as far as I know they never were therefore, do not have the luxury of free will. Demons can and have influenced humans who are ignorant and weak minded in order to make their mark.
If demons were able to exist on the same plane as us there would be no bargaining, or reasoning because they would just destroy everything and tear into humans like a ham sandwich. Demons "are" evil, humans "can" be evil. Do you see what I mean?

Well, that is what was floating around in my head. I hope I was able to express my thoughts without any confusion and again I do not mean any disrespect.

Thanks,
Cosmo 😊

Wow...what a conversation. Here's my 2 cents...

Malevolent Entities = are mean and nasty entities formed when the 'Earth' was formed. They thrive off making people miserable. Negative Energy is an environment they thrive in. These Entities are not strong enough to posses us.

Benevolent Entities = are 'good' in nature, formed when the 'Earth' was, and do things that help people. Positive Energy is the environment they thrive in.

Angel's = The First thing 'Created' by 'The Creator'. These Entities were given Free Will and a chance to use it.

One such 'ANGEL' used his free will, gathered some other angels together and wanted to wield a power that wasn't his. (The Power of Creation) Not believing that it wasn't 'his' to have he 'rebelled' against the Creator and was 'cast out' along with his supporters. By being 'cast out' they were removed from the 'cycle' of being able to experience a physical life. This made them bitterly jealous and envious. Their main goal now is to 'take over' a physical body... Steal it / control it, if even for a short time, and by doing so taking away an individuals 'free will'. These are the...

Demons and the Devil Himself. They are utterly EVIL... Not just 'mean spirited' not merely pranksters... But truly EVIL. It is they who tempt us away from the 'light' in order that they may weaken us so that they can take over our bodies.

Sure the things Humans do to each other are described as 'demonic' sometimes... And in some cases these things may be done under the 'influence' of a demon... But Every man, woman and child can choose for themselves, sometimes this plays into the hands of the 'Creator', like good actions and deeds, and other times right into the hands of the 'Devil'...It depends on the influences an individual 'hearkens' to in life.

There can not be one without the other... Good does not exist without Evil... There is nothing to learn if it's all 'one way'.

I'll explain further if needs be.

Respectfully,

Rook

TID,
I've never been a big fan of man's evils... Nor am I a fan of the cause of them. Please share some stories with us all about the good demons do... Since that is where this conversation started. Remember, demons aren't bad...that's about as educated as saying drunk drivers aren't bad if they get home without hurting anyone. Who cares what they do to their family, who cares what goes on behind closed doors... As long as we don't see it and it doesn't effect us. These are the evils of "man"...God's perfect little project that went bad, and continues to.
See where this is going? The same hypocrisy you use to blast Christianity lives and breathes in non-believers, as well. I'm the first to admit that no one has done more harm to the reputation of Christianity, than Christians. But Christianity is not about living like a Christian, it is about living like Christ did.
I have dealt with demonic influence... Not the demons of substance abuse, or gambling, or other vices labeled as personal demons, but the real thing. And with the help of others, and my God, we left him cowering in the corner pissing himself... He did not compare to us, as humans, let alone our creator.
Theory and speculation are all fun, but in the immortal words of the great philosopher, Mike Tyson, "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".
Well, TID, what's your plan? Because from where I sit, condoning evil is a millisecond away from embracing it, and nobody sees an uppercut coming and those stars aren't the Milky Way. Who are you going to call out to when it is your turn?

Here's a comparison for you. Pamplona, Spain. I see it on TV every year... I do not tune in to watch, but there it is on the news. I know it exists, but I do not condone it and sure as heck don't want to participate.
The participants live for the thrill. I prefer to just live.

People who condone demons are racing through life in a white outfit with a red scarf around their neck, hoping the guy next to them gets it. Well, you mess with the bull...

I prefer angelic trumpets to horns, personally.

Lou

Lou

TruthInDarkness,
So by your logic, as laid out here, because man has done evil to man, he has put himself on the same 'level' as a demon? That's fine for comparison shopping I suppose. However, it doesn't bring demon to the 'level' of man. Not a chance. Why do you think they're called "demons" anyway? The name itself denotes evil.
If that's what you're into, I certainly won't try to stand in your way.
Me? The old tried and true is my route of travel. I'll stick to what works for me.
I am guilty of making the occasional fashion 'faux pas', and I suppose you could consider that a sin of ignorance. But choosing to throw in with evil is a bit more than a wardrobe decision for me. Looking 'wicked scary' in a pair of tight jeans doesn't sit on the same level as being spiritually possessed by a malevolent being. Nothing you or anyone else can say will ever change my mind on that.
Demon jeans will most likely fall out of style at some point, just like any other fashion. But the 'Eternal Soul' is forever.
Forever is a long time to choose to live in the dark.

Jav 😐

DeviousAngel - Thanks for the compliments. I agree with many of your views as well. I like "dark" stuff. Not depressing, but eerie, haunting, primal, surreal. Email? Sure. Even IM if you like.

Jav - Demons a "must have" gift? That's got to make you chuckle. "Look! There's a purple one with yellow polka dots. How cute!" Have demons gone mainstream? Where have you been? They've been hitting the discotheques for decades now! Just kidding! Did I put them in the "hold you in their loving arms" column? Bearhug anyone? I thought I put them in the "they're a lot like us" column.

Here are 4 things I know:

I "know" that many good deeds don't go unpunished.
I "know" how it feels to be devalued and helpless.
I "know" that there's a difference between bad and evil.
I "know" that the only thing consistent in this world is that it is inconsistent.

Are there gods in black holes? "Help! I've been sucked in and I can't get out!"

Lou - Why do demons victimize humans? Let me ask you this... Why did the Europeans victimize Native Americans? Why did the Romans victimize the "barbarians" who once occupied what is now Germany? Why did the Spaniards victimize the Mayan, Incas, and Aztecs? Imperialism played a big part. Also, the Romans, Spaniards and other Europeans considered anyone who wasn't Catholic or Christian and were unwilling to convert as "barbarians". In reality, the "conquerors" were the barbarians. Alas, that's part of a different discussion entirely. The point I'm making is that demons might very well victimize humans because some of them apparently want to expand their territory. Or, perhaps, they consider us "barbarians" because we are not like them. Another option is that they are like some animal species who kill, mame, or simply make things unpleasant for fun. Humans are certainly guilty of that too.

What do demons eat? Well, some say that they eat flesh; often that of their own kind. Some say that they merely feed off of our energy. Who knows, really? What do human spirits eat?

Where do demons live? My answer is simply "in another dimension". You can call it a realm if you like. Others would say that they live in the "lower vibrations". Clive Barker seems to say that they live in the Ninth Circle. A similar concept to "lower vibrations" only within our physical realm and not the spirit realm. Picture 8 concentric spheres under the top surface (first circle) of the earth.

How is infestation and manipulation a means of survival? I think I've pretty much answered that above. Humans have certainly "infested" this planet. We, single handedly, have caused the extinction of hundreds of animal species. We are constantly manipulating other humans in order to get what we desire and to come out on top even if it is to the detriment of those "below". Are you seeing the parallels now?

Fault demons for their actions toward humans? I'm not going to say that there can't be some ground rules set in place if we were to negotiate a peaceful coexistence. However, like most other species on this planet, they don't live by our rules and laws. Here's something for you to think about... Why didn't we fault Spaniards when they slaughtered Mayans? Why didn't we fault European settlers when they murdered and raped Native Americans? Why didn't we fault Americans who killed and raped innocent women and children in Vietnam and Korea? Who are the REAL demons? Us? Or them?

"All you need is Love, Love is all you need"...The Beatles...

All, all is theft, all is unceasing and rigorous competition in nature; the desire to make off with the substance of others is the foremost - the most legitimate - passion nature has bred into us and, without doubt, the most agreeable one.
Marquis de Sade

i don't wish to be everything to everyone
But something to someone~
Katherine kurtz

❤ this one 😊

an eye for an eye only end up making the whole world blind
Gandhi

The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson

I don't believe it. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it.
Douglas Adams

Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers

a friend is someone who knows you and loves you just the same~elbert hubbert

TruthInDarkness,
And the rest of the male population...

You guys seriously need to learn the "It's all cver" signs.

Jav 😆 😆

No man knows until he has suffered from the night how sweet and dear to his heart and eye the morning can be.
Bram Stoker

Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.
Mark Twain

Wow! I seem to have stirred up quite a conversation! I'll reply to all of you later this evening. I promise. Maybe we should take this to the forum? I heard that there is one, but I'm not sure how to access it. I'll respond either way.

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.
Rod Serling

"Where am I? Who am I? How did I come to be here? What is this thing called the world? How did I come into the world? Why was I not consulted? And if I am compelled to take part in it, Where is the director? I want to see him." -Soren Kierkegaard

This is fun! The quote game!

Each generation should be made to bear the burden of its own wars, instead of carrying them on, at the expense of other generations.
James Madison

the best advice I can give is...
Ignore advice!
Life is to short to be distracted by the opinions of others! ~ russell edson

"I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living."
- Dr. Seuss

your born!
You live your life!
You die!

It is how you touch others lives during your own life time that is the thing that is missed the most!

Me 😆

Jav,

I am not an atheist, so I am not sure who it is you are referring to.

Truthindarkness, I would like to hear more of your ideas, if you would like to email me sometime. I think we may have a lot of ideas in common and it would be cool to compare notes. Particularly if you do not mind me picking your brain for my research. 😉

DeviousAngel,

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Peace,
Jav

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." -Socrates

"Reality is perception. Perceptions change. Reality is fluid. So if by 'reality' you mean reliably tangible objects and immutable events, then there's no such thing." -Dean Koontz

❤

Lou,

Bears scare me. Sorry, no getting around that fact.

I "know" there are miracles happening every day.
I "know" how it feels to love and be loved.
I "know" there's a differece between good and evil.
I "know" what I experienced was the real deal.

Those are absolutes in my book, and if that
Sounds "narrow" minded? Then I'm good with that too.

Jav 😊

Jav, darling,
Don't you know? Demon is the new dog. Just rub their belly and you have a friend for life.

Frankly, I think the rationale is based in fear. Those who defend the good demon, just don't want to acknowledge its intent and what it is capable of. Free-ranging grizzly bears might make great pets... Except for the mauling and burying you in the pile in the laundry room thing.

Lou

The way I see it is there are good people and bad people, but when it comes down to it, they are all people. We look different, speak different languages, act differently toward each other, and there are different sides to us. Some see things others do not, and some are not who they appear to be. I can imagine it would be similar with spirits/ghosts/entities. There are good ones and bad ones, and since we do not "know" anything about...anything, really, all we can do is form our opinions and guess. But in the end, we might all be wrong, or we might all be right.

I will not be so narrow-minded as to presume that I "know" anything about the paranormal. I just like to take shots in the dark and exchange my theories and opinions. If people don't like them, cool beans! If they do, more cool beans! Right, wrong or indifferent, "all we are is dust in the wind". ❤

Lou,
When, exactly, do you suppose demons became the new "Must Have" gift? I have been paying attention and apparently I keep missing that part.
Is this true? Have demons gone mainstream? Are they serving up meals at the soup kitchens? Perhaps they volunteer their time at retirement homes and homeless shelters. Or maybe they're running day care centers at the home for abused and battered women and children?
Because with all these differing opinions on the origins and nature of demons, I'm at a complete loss as to how they moved from the "Something you want nothing to do with" column, over to the "Hold you in their loving arms and protect you" column.

Will they be applying for a change of species name too? God knows, I don't want to be caught using an outdated politically incorrect greeting as I'm waiting in line at the grocery store, and suffer the uncomfortable awkwardness. 😕 😲

Good is bad as bad is good, huh?

No, I don't think I'm ever going to drink that Kool Aid. You see, I've actually seen my daughters Guardian Angel. And I wasn't the only witness that night. So I know exactly where I stand on the matter. I don't question that experience for a moment.
Yep, I'm rock solid when it comes to that topic.
Thanks but no thanks,

Jav ❤

Truthindarkness - I enjoy your thoughts on this topic. Who are we to say that demons and angels are not the very same beings? Perhaps the things they do, good and bad, are just the different sides of the coin. I am glad you shared your thoughts here...

And by the way, I cannot WAIT to steal my fiance's Clive Barker book when he is done with it. I have not had much of a chance to read his works but I have heard they are amazing, and I like his writing style. I played a bit of the game Jericho that he wrote and that game is TWISTED. I love it.

TID,
No honor required. I guess where your theory falls through the cracks for me is in demonic motivation. It IS true that lions, tigers, bears (____,___!) etc do kill instinctly for sustenance, in self-defense, to maintain territorial dominance, etc... So explain why you feel demons victimize humans. What do demons eat, where do they live, how is infestation and manipulation a means of survival for them?
So, if tormenting humans is how they survive, we cannot fault them for it? Demons are spiritual entities capable of transcending time and space... If they can go anywhere and be anything, why are they bothering us? IF they mean us no harm, why do their attacks consist of physical harm, and emotional trauma resulting in depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies?
A demon is the spiritual equivalent of a tapeworm... And last I knew, that is a harmful parasite that discards its victim when the victim no longer provides it sustenance.
I guess I'm just naive to the good part.

Lou

TID,
Take my advice on this one, you will not regret it. I promise.
"The Imajica"
I've reread it twice. And now that I've brought it up, I'm going to read it again. BTW that is not the norm for me. Its not often I feel compelled to reread a book, especially more than once.

Jav

Jav - The only other book by Clive Barker that I've read (actually, had read to me in audio form) is Damnation Game. That was an excellent book. As I "read" the book about 20 years ago, the details are a bit foggy. I do remember enjoying it though. BTW, it's not a habit for me to buy audio books. I happened to see it in the bargain section of Barnes and Noble.

I just noticed that you have a few stories now. I'll take a look at them when I get a chance.

TID,
I too, am a Clive Barker fan. Truth be told, I started reading his work when there weren't as many to choose from. What I did from the very first, was go chronologically through his works. It was interesting in that I felt I was gaining a much keener understanding of those worlds in the process.
One thing I love about his work/worlds is his emphasis on the smallest detail. He simply takes you away.
If you've read enough of his work, you'll know that he sometimes throws in a reference or two from his previous works. I always have to smile when I find those, knowing I would have never noticed if I hadn't read those books in the order they were written.
That being said, I was wondering if you'd read through any of his earlier works? My personal favorite is "The Imajica". *If you've read the book you will understand why I'm bringing it up in this particuar conversation. If so, what impression, if any, did the ending have on you?

Jav

Lou - Wow! A comment in reply to mine from you! I'm honored... Even if it was a bit of a stab.

I'm listening to an audio book during my commute to/from work. It's Mr B Gone by Clive Barker. The lead character, a demon, talks about 9 circles. At one point, he is caught in a trap and pulled up through 8 circles to the Earth's surface. Sound familiar? Jules Verne had a similar concept in Journey to the Center of the Earth. A brilliant scientist by the name of Edmund Halley also had this theory. I'm not trying to say that I believe this. On the other hand, scientists only postulate to the contrary based on seismic evidence. Thus, Earth having concentric spheres that are able to support various life forms is possible. Yes, both Barker's and Verne's books are fiction. However, we cannot say, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there isn't some truth to them.

My point is that I'm not claiming to have all of the answers. Much like the aforementioned people, I have a great imagination and many theories. You cannot justifiably criticize a theory unless there's an abundance of evidence to debunk it. That said, I'm not implying that you have to agree or that no-one else's theories could be just as correct (or wrong) as mine. I'm just putting them out there as something for you to ponder about.

I'll close this with a lyric quote:

"...I have a mind of my own
In hiding
Far from the city of night
And the factories of truth
I stand upon the mountain
A million miles from my home
And the faces of fear
I have freedom to think
In hiding" -Peter Gabriel, 1969

TruthinDarkness,
Awesome and thanks for the info. I guess I screwed up when I dumped my general practitioner for recommending that demon vaccine. Who knew? Other than you, of course.

The world is a vampire, sent to drain
Secret destroyers, hold you up to the flames
And what do I get, for my pain?
Betrayed desires, and a piece of the game

God Bless,
Lou

I don't know where I left my brain earlier. I completely misspelled etiquette.

Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

I guess I have to expect to ruffle a feather or 2. 😉

True or not. This is an interesting story. Yes, you might say that the incubus wasn't polite with regard to touching her. Or perhaps didn't abide by OUR edicate. That's was HIS personality. Does it make him bad? Maybe. I wouldn't want to label him that way just because he took certain liberties though. At least he didn't force her to have sex.

My suggestions are:

1) Thank it again for fixing your glass statue

2) Ask them nicely to leave.

3) If step 2 fails, be more stern about it.

It might take more than one try. If they still persist, post such here and someone should be able to give a more rigorous method to make them leave.

Although my current theories are a bit different from Redphx's beliefs, I agree with the claim that not all of what are commonly referred to as demons are evil. I believe that ALL life forms are capable of being good or evil; or even leaning slightly one way or the other while maintaining a degree of neutrality. I think there are life forms that range from pure (as on completely) energy with very little if any sort of consciousness to the millions (if not billions) of physical species that exist in the universe. The closest physical analog to a "pure energy being without a consciousness" that I can think of is an amoeba or maybe bacteria. Actually, bacteria is useful for another analogy. Many people consider bacteria bad because many types can make us sick. However, they don't consciously go on the attack to make people and animals sick. It's just their method of survival. Some forms of bacteria are good and aid us rather than hurt us. So, why should other life forms (conscious or not) be labeled evil just because they're doing things to ensure they're survival. Is a lion or a bear bad just because it attacks and possibly kills a person? I don't think so. Yet, we surely have no problem killing it because it hurt a person. This earth that we walk upon belongs to other species just as much (if not more) than it belongs to us. Humans have only been around a few million years. Meanwhile, many other species have been around much longer. We were not always at the top of the food chain. Only through ever increasing weapons technology and building better homes than straw huts or the like have we gained the upper hand in this physical realm.

Much like even modern history books, I think that the bible offers a very skewed version of human origins and history. In fact, I strongly believe that some of the stuff is out-and-out lies presented to keep us, the sheep, corralled inside our pin. Other stuff is merely parables. That's my take anyway. It is my belief that the REAL truth is out there for those who seek it. And this REAL truth is much darker, more violent and stranger than what the historians have handed down through the ages. As has been implied, I think that the line between good and evil is very muddy indeed. Just remember... You can twist perception, but reality won't budge.

I think further discussion by me on this front needs to occur somewhere other than in the "comments" section of a single story. Anyway, I apologize for being slightly off topic with regard to the O/P. I just wanted to put in writing what I think several people here believe. Specifically, I was responding to the comments that Redphx has made. Though I did get on a bit of a roll.

Be EXTREMLY careful they can be dangerous. Has anything else happened, even the most littliest thing?

-Liz (:

girl you must not TRUST INCUBUS, the real meaning of them is to simply little by little take your life away. It is obvious that both want to keep you because your alive and will do anything for either one of them to get what they want. BE REALLY THEY ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED INCUBUS ARE DEMONS NOT GHOST I SUGGEST YOU FIND PROFESIONAL HELP good luck

Redphx,
We're good. I don't look to change people, just try to understand where they get their inspiration and motivation. If ours comes from different places, I am ok with that. I respect your passion in your beliefs.

Lou

LoversSeperated: Any updates, further experiences, questions or comments about the advice given?...If not, then are we to assume that your problem is solved, or most likely: that this is just a "red herring"?... 😐

Rook,

Sorry but when I checked the page yesterday, I was on my cell phone. It is rather hard to navigate so I commented where it was easiest. I have moved the conversation over to your story as requested.

Also, I am not taking the opportunity to pick on any one individual. If there is someone in particular that I disagree with, then yes, I will address that person individually. I will also address people that I particularly agree with, as I did redphx when I stated that though our opinions differ, I can appreciate her point of view because she has explained herself in a way that makes sense. IE, "I believe this way because of my experiences and because of my research." From everything I have read on this story, I do not see where I was individually picking on one person in particular. Jav's statement was openly contrary to the things that I said (though it may not have been directed at me, personally) and so I simply wanted her to elaborate on the WHY of her beliefs. She seems to take offense to every thing I say, regardless of whether or not it is contrary to her statements.

I think if anyone has a problem with a little mature argument or disagreement, then they probably should not be here, or at least should not participate in the discussion.

normally in these kind of situations I would recomend that you tell these incubus's that this is your house and your body and so to leave you alone. Go through all of the rooms in your house and continue to state this and by the end of the week they should be gone.
P.s: both incubus's are evil there is no such thing as a good incubus and they are both manipulating you to get what they want.

LoversSeperated,

My sincere apologizes, as my invitation to take this discussion over to one of my experiences seems to have been ignored by some. Please pardon this interruption... It will be my last off topic post on your experience.

DA,

I'm surprised... You say... "As I have stated, I welcome other opinions and I have extended this opportunity to understand you and those who share your beliefs." You even go on to say you wish to understand the 'why' (in this case an individual was addressed) Quoting You... "I am trying to understand WHY you believe that, or if you just accept whatever is fed to you without taking the time to consider it."

Now I have invited you and others over to an experience of mine so these things can be discussed and yet you chose to comment here, and address a single individual with your question... It makes me wonder if you prefer arguing with individuals rather than open and honest discussion. Come on over, the topic is open and the discussion started, here's the link again...

Http://www.yourghoststories.com/real-ghost-story.php?story=5020

Hope to see you there.

Respectfully,

Rook

GI-Jane: By all means, please feel free to email me and we can discuss.:)

Jav: I fail to see how my disagreement with your personal opinion or my asking why you believe that constitutes me being unreceptive. As I have stated, I welcome other opinions and I have extended this opportunity to understand you and those who share your beliefs. My questions are not intended to offend or change your mind. Quite the contrary. I am trying to understand WHY you believe that, or if you just accept whatever is fed to you without taking the time to consider it. If that is what you call faith, I would rather die without faith and face an empty or terrible afterlife than live my life around conformity and obedience. Why so confrontational, Jav? Does this conversation scare you?

I look back over the last... Say 48 hours of comments and what do I see... Part of the conversation that I was trying to draw off another posters experience and onto one of mine...DA, Red, Jav and GIJane and others please join me and Trix over at one of my experiences...I've opened it up for discussions of the type here. The O/P here has stated they do not see how this 'debate' is helping them in anyway, so how about it... Bring it on over to...

Http://www.yourghoststories.com/real-ghost-story.php?story=5020

It's called Tour Of Jerusalem And Bethlehem, and in and of itself may bring some insight... At least into where I may be coming from...

And let's discuss things over there.

Respectfully,

Rook

im sorry lollypop300 but I would disagree with you. Stay away from the Ouija bored its a dangerous game and if you don't close the gates properly youl end up leaving the gates open for more entities to come through... So avoid that ts the last thing you need you! As for incubuses iv heard of them 'sex demon' is exactly what they are there is no good incubuses there screwing with you! If you can talk to your parents maybe get someone in like a medium someone perfesstional who knows how to deal entities lik these she would do a cleansing with sage... Remember don't let them take control, altho scarey as they maybe don't show it they'll feed off your fear! Demand they leave and tell them there not wanted! But please please the worse thing you could do is the Ouija bored, avoid it!
Sorry can't be of much help but I wish you all the luck with it,
Tanya

LoversSeperated: Well, you see, sometimes these types of discussions happen because the author isn't making the effort to answer questions posed... I see from your profile that your first of two comments was made the day you submitted your story, and nothing since then until now... That kind of neglect leads us to believe that the author isn't really interested...

At the bottom of your story you'll see a link that says "read previous comments"...I suggest you do so, and make an attempt to include yourself in the conversation...

I can oppose something get a Ouija bored or make one. Just search on Google how you could make one or buy one from it had helped me in the past. Hope it helps

❤ Lollyp0p300

Loverseperated- its a discussion, you find that happends, people here are open, some opinionated, others kind of flighty bouncing from one topic to the next, random conversations sparked from a post happen often, there is nothing intrinsicly wrong with that. I haven't read the comments, my appologies fellow posters, it takes far to long on the cell phone. There are many (contrary to some beliefs) ways of ridding your self of, this/these entities, if you have the willpower/endurence force them out your self (not recomended) if your religious prayer, bibles, blessings (personally not recomended) you can cleanse your home with burning herbs I.E. Sage (never tired...) there are other more non-orthodox ways of doing things but they involve others, and a degree of difficulty and specialty that is rare to find in people now adays...

Uhm...Thanks to those who actually wanted to help. But I would like to know why people are having a HUGE conversation about Beliefs and the bible. It all seems so Interesting, but I read some of the posts and Most of them have absolutely nothing to do with Paranormal or anything that would help. Sorry if I sound like a crazy b**ch that Lies on the internet, but I a serious and I WANT TO get rid of them for good.

I don't really know what I'm looking for Javelina. I can tell you honestly, and extremely embarassingly (as I'm 23) I have an uncontrollable, massive fear of death. I need help with it because it's consuming my life and I can't find answers that help my situation on my own.

GI-Jane88,
I have no idea what you are looking for BUT I have a feeling you may want to speak with Aussiedaz also. I haven't got a clue why, I just have a feeling.
Here's a link to one of his stories, you can find him from there.:
Http://www.yourghoststories.com/real-ghost-story.php?story=10402

Jav

deviousangel would you mind if I emailed you some questions too? No one I know talks about this kind of stuff. You obviously enjoy talking about this it, as I do. A differing of opinions isn't an argument, it's a conversation. It really makes you see why this topic causes wars. Anyway- if you fancy a chat, let me know. I just want to dissect your beliefs, question them and see what we get. I'm not doing that to alter your beliefs in any shape or form, I just want to better understand my own views.

DeviousAngel,
You just continue to march forward with the same complaint, and no matter what is posted up to answer that complaint, you seem not to be able to comprehend it.
It has become clear that others opinions are not what you are looking for here. You have your own ideas, and no one can fault you for that. It isn't my intention to convince you that what has been written and passed down is true in it's literal form at all. Quite the opposite really. You must make your own choices in life, your own mistakes and triumphs are what shape you into who you are.
And though this was an interesting discussion earlier, it looks like it may start getting repetitive. The arguments you bring forward are not new, and there is certainly no indication they will ever be resolved on these pages.
If your only purpose is to condemn others for having faith, then I feel sorry for you. But I won't continue to repeat what has already been said.

Jav

Jav,

Once again I have to re-quote.

"Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the creator of human intelligence."

I liken the Bible to being on this site. Most of the stories posted on here give you a certain feeling. Usually that feeling is either strongly affirmative or strongly negative, and occasionally there's one that leaves you on the edge of the line going "eeeeeeh, I dunno..." Same thing with the Bible. There are stories that make me go "yeah, uh huh. He talked to god through a bush. That was on fire." And then there are some that go "well, that seems logical considering they found fish fossils at the peaks of the mountains." And then there are some that make me think, "well, there may be some truth in this, but the wording seems awfully embellished."

And I do not think that any god can beget children, especially immaculate conception. Women can get pregnant without having a busted cherry, and I am sure you can use your imagination on how that could happen without me going into the gory details. That, again, is an interpretation problem. The Bible calls her pure, which can simply mean that she is a pious woman without sin (which...I find difficult to believe in and of itself). And yet people attribute "pure" to mean "virgin", and hence, the Virgin Mary.

See what I mean? The Bible is a game of telephone in which the details and wording of that time period have been changed and twisted. Did Jesus die for my sins? I don't know, but if he did, I think it was a waste because sin existed before he lived and it still exists today. If the Christian god is all-seeing and all-knowing, how did he not know that the Romans would have Jesus crucified?

If there is truly a god similar to the Christian deity, then I do not think he has the capability to interfere with free will, and therefore that makes him capable of what? Creation? Well, my loins and my own two hands can create, too. Does that not make us equal? Just because he's bigger and lives on a different plane, how does that make us so different? Is the soul not eternal?

sure girl. I don't mind having a discussion about beliefs with you

Email me at: reedinaz [at] aol.com

Hey red, would you consider talking to an atheist about religion via email? You seem really open about your faith etc and really firm in your belief. I'm not looking to change your beliefs I'm looking for someone who's religious opinion won't change because of what I say but also someone who won't get frustrated by differing opinions. Think that's something you'd do for me? Just to pick your brain more than anything, not in a zombie way.

wow. To be honest I was expecting people to be very upset over what I said. I had my dukes up. LOL. Thanks for your support!

Red,
You go woman! And don't you ever stop. Your heart has always been in the right place, so you're golden in my book. Now... If we could just get the others to see that it's not a big thing, huh?
With me it's all about breaking it down to the simplest form. The real nitty gritty, so to speak. I went through my childhood memorizing bible verses, but not their meanings. I was a kid! And frankly, some of that stuff is pretty gruesome. But I love it now!

Jav

DA - Thank you for that. I also respect that others have different views and I very rarely spout my ideas unless I am asked to directly. I am pleased that you are open to hearing new ideas even if they don't match your own. I never try to convert anyone to my ideas. You are very mature in that you understand there are different ideas in the world. I also agree that we are ALL children of God.

Hooch - I wasn't hammering away on the Bible. You asked for my interpretation on things so I gave them to you. I never outright tell anyone their ideas are wrong. If you read all my posts I always tell the authors to pray and use whatever tools give them strength. Not what my own beliefs are. And just because I partied when I was a teen doesn't mean that I wasn't a good student. I was a straight A student actually. Just because I don't remember something from High School doesn't mean that it affected me greatly. I never stated that I wanted to teach anyone about the Bible. They have Bible study for that. I was teaching someone about my beliefs, that's it. Since you find it offensive that I speak of the Bible I will refrain from referencing it in a negative light that makes you upset. Your offer to take the world's smallest cookie still stands. LOL

Lou - I respect you. I really do. I feel from you that you an educated person. The church is a very bad place in my opinion. The Catholic Church especially. But that is only what I have witnessed and read about what they have done throughout history. There are wonderful priests and there are wonderful people who speak about spiritualism and its true meaning. But there are also very bad people who just want to control and that Vatican is one of them. I will never be swayed on that opinion. I was not provided information by a supreme being. My knowledge comes from my experience of doing the cycle of living over and over. That doesn't make sense to you and I can't explain it further. I don't like talking about that in too much detail because it makes people uncomfortable and upset. I am going to end this conversation on my beliefs because frankly I shouldn't have to submit proof of what I feel to be true in my heart.

Shini - Your examples are good and I think that those were written by men. No God would say those things. And if he did then I don't want him to be my God. That is not what he would have said. Why would God allow people to be taken advantage of? And God would never say that women are inferior to males when they are way we are given life. My point is that the Bible was not written by God it was written by man. And only man. No women were consulted in its formation. Constantine had a meeting with a group of men and they decided what was put in the Bible and what wasn't. The Vatican holds thousands of other stories that never found its way into the Bible. They won't share that information because it is considered to be private matters of the church. WTF. If they say that ALL the writings are the word of God then everyone on the planet should be able to see them. Hence forth - control over the people.

Jav - you are right! The flood is a story that is in almost every culture. Good job and pointing that out. I watch a lot of history shows where they decode the bible. Now they are saying that most of the biblical references could have extra terrestrial meaning behind them. I thought that was a neat spin on it. I am not saying the bible is fiction. I said most of it is literal piss because it takes what seems to be a global event and saying that God made the flood to rid the Earth of bad people. No he didn't! It was obviously a physical reason that flood happened. But people back then had to make big events like that god related. The Greeks did this all the time. If you look closely the Greek religion plays a huge role in shaping the Christian religion. They even have Hades in the Bible! There are claims by many scholars that are there are over 100 commandments. So where are they? See above about records being held in the Vatican. Where is my back-up about the Vatican claim? I watched a documentary called "inside the Vatican" and they talked about their secret records hidden in their vaults. They said it was so. I want to see those records!

Where is dragonstorm - See people think that I am a male too. LOL

D/A,
Most of your questions can be answered by reading my post prior to this one. But I will try to address what I can here.
Your statement reads..."I think a lot of the tall tales are allegorical and perhaps reference at least partially true events, but have been rewritten to appeal to people in a more spiritually profound way so as to reinforce the ideology of disobedience = calamity. Whether or not the things that occurred were due to the Christian god's influence, I cannot say."
Here is one common mistake I see a lot these days, the "Christian" God you speak of became that after the birth of Christ. The big ones, you know? Once Jesus got here, that was it. If we didn't get it after He sent Jesus to speak to us in words we would understand then we never would. When you hear someone say "He died for our sins", what do you think that means? My interpretation of that statement (and remember, these are my words) is God had decided to give us one more chance to get it right, he sent his own son to talk to us, and it was our last chance. If that failed, we were goners. But Christ offered up his life in exchange for ours so that we might live. God accepted that. No more calamities. A deal is a deal.
Which brings me to your inquiries about believing the miracles and calamities actually took place as has been recorded in scripture. It's called "Faith" and it's a pretty big deal. See, if you don't have Faith, it's never going to make sense to you. That's not something I can give you, but you'll know it if you have it!
It may sound overly simplistic when put into those words, however, I have faith that He will understand.

Jav

Someday we'll have to discuss this habit you have adopted of attributing to me words and statements I had never uttered,. Not today though, I just haven't the time.

Jav: I can kind of understand the point you are making here, but I am curious, what is your opinion on the fact that things like the flood, S&G, etc. Happened in Biblical times but today, no matter how bad the world gets, we see none of those events? Yeah, there are some crazy weather conditions going on, but nothing that cannot be attributed to the process of global warming. I think in modern times it is a lot more difficult to embellish folklore the way they did back then because most things that happen today have scientific reasons which can be explained and understood as natural rather than magical.

I also do not deny the existence of a flood, though to what extent is of some debate. I think a lot of the tall tales are allegorical and perhaps reference at least partially true events, but have been rewritten to appeal to people in a more spiritually profound way so as to reinforce the ideology of disobedience = calamity. Whether or not the things that occurred were due to the Christian god's influence, I cannot say. Personally I do not believe so but I cannot condemn anyone who DOES believe so. Natural disasters happen all of the time, and even the plagues can be scientifically explained. Again, I think it comes down to interpretation. Simply stating that each and every story in the Bible is fact is quite a stretch of the imagination and one that I am not personally capable of making considering the lack of "miracles" we see today.

Hello there. I've never had an experience with Incubi, but they are a type of demon and I've dealt with demons. I'm not christian, I'm wiccan, so I'm going to leave out all of the religious stuff dealing with the supernatural, and if you would like me to help you in ridding yourself of these beings or teaching you more about them you're very welcome to email me. I've been studying such things for a very long time, and my spirit guides have taught me things very few people know to be fact. I'm not bragging here, I'm merely saying, if you want help, I have it. Sincerely, Gabrielle.

That was not a very good question, sorry.
All I was getting to really, was what I believe to have been God's way of saying "OK, here you go, see this guy? He's here to help, listen to his words and follow his teachings. Accept Him as you would me. He knows what I want, so pay attention.
Kind of like saying, "Last chance folks, don't screw it up!"

Jav ❤

Shini,
One thing people seem to ignore when criticizing what was written in biblical times are the times that God brought calamity down upon man because he had strayed. Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, these are examples of God basically hitting the reset button. So depending on the chronology of your complaint, and what did or did not occur as a result of those rules/laws, you could be speaking of things that He intended to put a stop to. After the flood, things were supposed to change. That's why it was sent. Are the passages you refer to set down before or after a Wrath of God event?

Jav