Comments for Tour Of Jerusalem And Bethlehem: Page 5

Durn it, I meant to add...

Peter and Judas both acted in a manner that was basically, 'preservation mode'. In the case of Judas he thought Christ had 'lost himself' in the adoration of the followers that flocked to his message.

Peter, his was purely self preservation.

Epiphany time! (and back to a 'religious' bend on things...

Heavenly Father knew that in order for Christ's 'sacrifice' to hold meaning he had to be an 'innocent victim' Heavenly Father also 'knew' that every 'player' involved had free will as given by 'Him' way, way back in Creation... So 'He' 'stacked' the deck. The 'players' present were there not by 'chance' but because there was a 99% chance they would react in a given manner, under the given circumstances. Each had a chance to exercise their 'free will' but the odds were in Heavenly Fathers favor 'He'd' get the 'outcome' 'He' needed in order for 'His' plan to mover forward.

I hope that makes some kind of sense...

Respectfully,

Rook

But would the fact that Pilate, a high positioned Roman, was saying that he was innocent not have dispelled some of the fears the crowd had?

johntravis,

The crowd had the Might of the Roman Empire to fear and by acting 'in secret' the Pharisees, by having Judas 'turn in' Christ and then turning him over to the Romans they were able to say to the Public...'Look, the Romans have taken him into custody, he must be a threat to Rome and therefore a threat to our 'well being'. The Pharisees played to the populations fear of the Romans in order that they might maintain their 'status' and basically their jobs...

Respectfully,

Rook

[at] Taz/Carl & Javelina
The reason people vote down could be judged by the way karma points work. "Why" they individually didn't like your post is irrelevent, unless you wish to start a negative debate regarding it? Because that's all it would turn into, really.

I do think however, that people are just downing Jav's posts randomly now, because not every single one of the posts are, well, "negative" persay.
I have seen some of Jav's comments worth a down point, but like Taz/Carl said, we are entitled to our opinion. So unless the post has cussing or something offensive in it, I don't see it's point really.

One thing I do like from Jav, that I've seen, is that she's (assuming she's female, I forgot to check, sorry) very honest about her feelings. If she's upset, she'll let you know in her post. Most people won't explain to that standards, and just go off losing control of their emotion and creating negativity.

Anyhow, I lost my point with this comment, so I'll end it here.

Zeo

Hi Rook,

We were talking yesterday about the whole "Free Will" idea... And good points were made about power of suggestion which made sense to me. When Jesus told Peter and Judas what they would do, they may have acted ebcause of it. However, you now mention (which never occured to me at the time) about the crowd that inexplicably released a proven thief instead of the innocent Jesus. Seeing as how Jesus needed to be sacrificed (for want of a better word), this could suggest a lack of free will being displayed here too, for if the crowd had chosen to free Jesus, then he would never have been crucified and christian faith as we know it would not exist.

Judas and Peter may have been acting out of fear or suggestion... Could this have been the case for an huge crowd? What did they have to fear? Nobody was trying to get them to free Barabus, even Pilate was suggesting to free Jesus.

johntravis,

My Thread, My Rules... No Arguments... Or as few as I can let 'explode'. I for one was reading the 'arguments' this 'go round' and wasn't quite sure 'what set them off'.

I am very interested in your views about the other things I have posted. What say you?

Respectfully,

Rook

I have just arrived in work this morning and I was really looking forward to coming in so I could read more on the insightful and thought provoking comments that would have been made... Imagine my disappointment when I saw the argument that it had turned into. When this started it was an calm and open conversation, comparing beliefs and exchanging interesting counter ideas... So what happened?

Rook, I feel slightly honoured that a man of your wisdom agreed with me about Judas' sin 😁. Now I can't really comment on the bible, mainly because I haven't read it personally. Reason being because as Rook stated it was written by humans therefore open to editing. Also the New testament was written quite some time after Jesus' life so is open to mistakes, and has been translated through so many languages that I'm sure it must have lost something in the translation.

But as Aussiedaz said Jesus had had more influence and effect on this world (along with maybe Muhammed) than any other so is worthy of my respect. And I have not turned my back on the christian church... Just those who preach it for reasons I stated earlier. Now I more use my knowledge of christianity merged with other faiths and free thoughts to try and find my own truth. A long but exciting road.

If anybody would like to talk to me further about anything that was mentioned on here, then PLEASE feel free to email me. It is on my profile, for I fear this thread may continue to be an unreadable senseless argument

The funny thing about Bible verses is that they can hold different meanings for anybody who reads them...I'm pretty sure this has to do with a persons 'personal situation' and 'point of reference' at the time they read it. For myself, I've read scriptures and understood them differently each time I've read them.

Having said that I'd like to address at least one of the verses D/A brought up...

"Matthew 28:19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

While this verse does speak of going out and spreading the word it doesn't say 'how' it should be done. There are many, many different ways to teach people and it also offers those that do so 'comfort' by stating that 'He' is with them always.

Let's look at it a bit closer...

It does not mention 'how' to convert the nations... Just to go and do it... For me, well... I know it's easier to 'catch bees with hunny not vinegar'. (Teaching by example, taking time to explain things when people ask questions... Yelling and screaming just do not work... People 'tune it out'.)

Teach them to observe all I have commanded of you... But it doesn't mention what 'they' have been commanded to teach... This leaves it 'open' to the reader just which 'points' to teach... Couple this with no explanation of 'How to Teach' and it doesn't make a good combination and People take 'license' with this 'lack of direction'.

Brigham Young once said (yup that's my Church... 😉)

"I am not going to drive a man or woman to heaven. A great many think that they will be able to flog people into heaven, but this can never be done, for the intelligence in us is as independent as the God's. People are not to be driven and you can put into a gnat's eye all the souls of the children of men that are driven into heaven by preaching hell-fire." (Yes it's quoted correctly...It's God's plural... Not a typo... I'll try and explain if asked...)

Respectfully,

Rook

(and yes I've used that quote from Brigham Young before... Either here or on the sister site...)

Wow, Wow, Wow... I have a a lot of catching up to do... I browsed over the comments and some of the 'back and forth' seems... Well kind of out of the blue... I understand point and counter point... But why the defensiveness?

I am now declaring this a NO KARMA THREAD... There are no pluses or minuses... EVERYONE is entitled to their belief's and Point of View. So take a deep breath, read, then re-read what has been stated. If all you have is a 'passionate' response take another breath. It's fine to debate and offer counterpoints but 'heated' responses seem to sound (or read) as argumentative. Having said that... Lots to comment on... Where to start... Where to start...

Ah, my question about Judas... I believe his only sin was suicide... Let me explain and I'll try and keep all religious 'dogma' out of the equation.

A Great Teacher had emerged, he recruited 12 men to help him spread his message. One of them saw how 'crazy' some of the 'followers' were becoming (The Zealots) and worried about their safety, what's more he was witness to things such as his 'Master's' hair get anointed with expensive oils and perfumes... He felt that this was a waste and went against his 'Master's' teachings... After all they could have sold these items and raised money for the poor. Now enter another group of people with their own concerns... The Pharisees... The Priests of the Church of the day. What did they see in this 'Teacher'? This 'Leader'... This 'Fisher of Men'... They saw two threats...First...If the 'Zealots' had their way and this 'Man' started 'Preaching' 'Hate at Rome'...then Rome would Crush them as a People... They also were watching the people 'flock' to this Man... And they saw their 'support', their 'life style' being threatened because people were not supporting them anymore. So what happens... The Pharisees approach Judas, offer him Silver if he will 'turn in' his Master... They even say they just want to quiet him down as Rome may not like what he is saying, besides... You can use the silver to aid the poor and needy... Judas agrees, as he's worried that perhaps his Master has gotten 'Lost; in his own Popularity. It isn't until after the Pharisees turn him over to the Romans that Judas realizes he's been used... Over come with grief at what the Romans do to this man whom he 'Loved' he kills himself.

Even Peter denied his Master... After the crowds turned against Christ... He was recognized and was scared that the Mod would kill him... So he acted out of self preservation...

My issue with the Bible has mostly to do with the fact it is written by Men (mankind, Or how people interpret it)...men who tell the story from their 'point of view'...and that is the only 'point of view' the reader is presented with. This is one of the reasons I like the Musical Jesus Christ Superstar... It 'shows' the various points of view... (they may not be right... But they are 'presented'). Heck even Pilot didn't want to do anything to Jesus... He sent him to Herod, who kicked him right back to Pilot as he didn't want to jeopardize his Position with Rome. So it's was left to Pilot... With an angry mod at his door... To do something... He went so far as to ask the people who they wanted to free, a thief who had been caught and put on trial or Christ, a man who had committed no crime what so ever... The people chose to free the Thief...

Now there is the real question...how/why did the masses reverse themselves so quickly? One day they were supporting Christ and his teachings, the next they free a thief and 'force' Pilot to condemn an innocent man to death. I think it was fear... The Pharisees fed into the populations fear of Rome... 'See, the guards have arrested him... Rome thinks he's a threat...ect', and the people 'bought' into it, with out knowing the part the Pharisees played in Christ's arrest.

Just a few things to think about... 😉

Now I'm going to go back and re-read all the comments sense I was last on and see what else may need to be addressed.

Respectfully,

Rook

Rook,
I apologize for dragging this out here, that was never my intention. But there comes a point when you just have to put your foot down, and today was it for me. I'm leaving this thread now, no worries mate, I'll just turn my back on all of it. If my commenting causes this much of a ruckus then I guess my point has been made in spades.
Thank you friend for opening it up to the floor, I know it was never your intention to exclude me from the conversation.

Jav

Jave: Please read my comment again... I never said those were my personal feelings... I will say though, that I refuse to allow this site to become a place where no one feels comfortable... The negativity has to stop...

zzgranny,
Not once have I complained in any way whatsoever, in your words, "who stole my karma points". That has never been a concern of mine at all. If you think any comments I've made have been childish, then that's fine by me. If you think all my comments have been childish, and I'm speaking of the life of this thread, where it first began and since it was moved here, then I may have to start wondering if the problem is just me.

Jav

I can't speak for Rook, but I think when he reads where this thread has gone, he's not going to be very happy... I know I'm not...

How the hell did this adult conversation turn into a "psychic site" type of "who stole my points" childish school yard arguement?...

Those who wish to contribute their opinions and views can do so in an adult manner... If your comments gets "buried", then it probably means that those who are following this thread appreciate the fact that it has, for the most part, been very enlightening and civil and perhaps they feel that your comments are not contributing to the subject or are too juvenile to be taken seriously!...

Rook, sorry about the mess... I thank you for offering your comment thread for this discussion, but I'm afraid I may have to ask this discussion to end if these kinds of antics are going to continue... When these things happen, it seems to cast a pall over the entire site, and I don't want that to happen...

Ohhhh crap I have missed him, ok seeya Taz have a great weekend mate!

I have purposely stayed out off this conversation because I love you all. Religion and its ethics is a very touchy thing for a lot of people and seeing as the spiritual side of life is standing next to religion, there will always be a crossing of opinions and no side will ever win. I want to commend you all because I think the loonies have handled this topic and its exchange of ideas and thoughts extremely well, but I will sit on the fence with this one, but I want you all to know I respect all your thoughts ideas and religions. Go getem! 😊 ❤

taz - this kind of explains a little better why I have such a hard time with the stories about babies and children. It really is hard for me, it's not just oh Miracles is looking for attention (or Marjie for that matter).

There are people who use their children as excuses when they don't want to go to work "my kid is sick" or like we've seen on here, but can't prove "my parent died." These people piss me off. I won't even mention the other stuff cause it just tears me up.

Anyway, thank you and yes, for whatever reason, I guess God figured I needed to be taught a lesson 😆 and made me a momma of 2 ❤

ok loonies that's me done for the night 😭
Will try to pop back when I get home before I get some well needed sleep
(for them who don't know I work nights)

I won't be on again until monday night got a long weekend comming yay!
Will miss the chatter though 😢
Carl

miracles in a word wow!
I know you have lost babys and I'm sorry you had to go through that but this is the most amazing thing I have learned about you yet!

Any mother will see her babys as miracles but you have been blessed over the odds, thank you for sharing such personal details.

How can anyone be offended by the miracle of life?
Anyone who says or thinks this is offensive or should not have been added are narrow minded idiots!

Have said plenty of times before I don't believe in any kind of higher being but this does show you had someone looking out for you and smiling down on you
Bless you, bless your 2 miracles and who ever was kind enough to give them to you too
Carl ❤ ❤ ❤

Taz,
Yes, it was your comment that made me tear up. And yes again, it does help to know there is a why attached to the down vote. And thank you again for saying what you did, you are a true friend. Oh here come the tears again...

Jav ❤ ❤ ❤

Oops - I forgot something very important. I made a promise to God, my doctor and myself. As long as I am able to drive, I will always have 2Mircls on my license plates.

Devious - you mentioned something about miracles in one of your previous comments and because it's getting late and I'm way too lazy right now to hunt it down due to the numerous comments we have, I want to share something with you. It actually goes hand in hand with granny's comment, which is also buried (probably pages away LOL).

Some of this is very personal information that some people might find offensive and think shouldn't be shared on this site. Tough! If you don't want to read it, find another story to read right now. This is about my miracles. And frankly, it fits this topic and I'm going to share it whether or not someone gets offended.

A lot of you know that my profile name references my kids and that I've had 5 miscarriages. What most of you don't know is that my license plate on my truck also reads 2Mircls. The night I was having Dalton by C-Section, I told my Ob-Gyn that I was going to have 2 Miracles put on my license plate. He smiled and told me he thought that was a nice thing to do. The next day when my dr came to see me, he told me the next time he saw me, I'd better have 2 Miracles on my license plate. I told him I had planned on it. He said, "No, you don't understand. All kids are miracles, but you have 2 you never should have had. Scientifically and medically you never should have had either of your children." He explained to me that my uterus was pretty much severely deformed, which explained why I had suffered the miscarriages. Not only that, I never should have been able to conceive, yet I had been pregnant 6 times. For those of you who are counting, I lost a set of twins before I got pregnant with Dalton.

Every time someone asks me if I believe in miracles, I smile with tears in my eyes. They might drive me completely insane sometimes, but yes, I believe in miracles because I have 2.

jav you know me, if I "feel" the need then I got to say something.

Im sorry if it was my comment that made you tear up, even if there good tears.

To be honest did not expect any replys at all was me just ranting on 😆

Anyway I hope wahat I said to miracles was right, knowing you the "why" will mean something to you

Love you too, and the rest of my extended loonie family ❤
Carlxx

yes miracles I do recall when you would not stop saying sorry for hitting the wrong vote lol

Understand what your saying totaly and agree with it too but just feel that a true friend would understand if a comment left too that was the point I tried to make but as normal I have to use 300 words when 30 would have done 😆

And knowing jav I doubt she would think you were doing anything personaly like that I have seen you guys disagree before and it has not efected the friendship.

Yes you have stood up and said you voted her comment down, and also left a reason why but like I said it takes 5 not 1 to have a comment hidden.

I guess that like you say most people won't want to comment on the why, but I had a strong feeling and you could say the need to say what I did.

Personaly I think standing up and saying "it was me" will mean a lot more to jav than a up vote could ever mean, I mean you had your say, told her why and that was that.

Thanks for commenting back

😊 ❤

Carl,
Thank you for putting forth your opinion here, I know that wasn't something you would normally do. I can't say any more because my tears are getting in the way.
Love you,
Daena

taz - sometimes when someone votes a comment down, they feel they can't say why they voted them down because they consider that person a friend and it would hurt that friend's feelings if they disagreed with them. Or in other cases, it was someone who used to be a friend and that person would take it personally and consider it betrayal or just assume it was done out of spite. Crap, I've even pulled a dumb blonde a couple of times and hit the wrong arrow LOL. Remember that? 😆

Since I'm one who today voted Jav down, that's one of the reasons I didn't comment and say why I voted her down. I didn't feel it would have been received the way I meant it. That's why the voting is blind. I'm sure the other people who voted her down must have felt the same way, otherwise they'd have made their opinions known. Now that I've spoken up and said that I voted her down, nothing good can come of this. I disagreed with something she said. End of story. I wasn't part of a conspiracy group trying to bury her comments. I just didn't agree with what was said. Just the same way I've disagreed with many people over the course of the 17 months I've been a member of this site. The same way people who disagree with comments I make knock down my points. At least I assume that's why I lose the points. I "assume" it's not done out of spite.

guys, gals, gentlmen and ladys.
I have always said I would never comment when religion is brought up in the thread and to be honest this is just my feelings on what's been said today.

All I personaly wish to say is that we all try to get along here yes some people don't agree with others and can get argumentitive we have all done it within the time I have been on this site.
Normaly its a troll that pops on gives out their garbage and thankfuly is run out of town with their tail between their legs.

Now I'm not sticking up for anyone or saying anyone has done things to anyone else with bad intentions but I can see javilinas point, I as you know only get a short time on here at night and I have noticed a lot of jav, s comments "hidden" due to low karma votes.

I have said vote me up, down even sideways if possible I don't care about the karma points but I do think that if I saw my comments "hidden" it could make me feel like "what the hell?" and I could start questioning the "friendships" I have made here.

Now I personaly don't think this would happen but I can't see into the future so who knows?
This comment might even get "hidden" but I need to say this, what is the point of the karma points anyway? If you don't agree with something, someone or whatever then say so! It takes up to 5 minus points to hide a comment but most of the time that's all there is.
No why, just the down vote, now I know everyone has the right to vote how they want I'm not saying don't because that would be wrong of me but if your going to do it then why not say why too?

Most of the down votes I have receved and yes I have had a few were during a troll attack (ok hard words but you know what I mean) and I know it was the troll and their friends down voting me, sadly in this case there is no troll!
I want to use something bachgirl said earler in another thread,
Where is the love?

It does sometimes feel like the friendly happy site I joined has suddenly changed, I don't know if its the sudden increase in troll activity that has changed things or what but I do feel like its affecting the "loonie family" I have enjoyed being a part of.

Ok rant over, backing out now!
Carl ❤

aussiedaz,
That was beautiful. I love that you brought up the gospel of Thomas. It is amazing that when putting the works of the apostles into the Good Book they could leave so much out.

Jav

I think we would all agree, that no one individual has made an impact on a society of its time and given more spiritual direction and hope to his followers on a magnitude of wisdom, that still can be comprehended and accepted with undeniable faith 1000's of years later than the son of God himself Jesus Christ... I do believe Jesus was sent here to make his mark and change some of the barbaric and disgusting social behaviours that was going on with in that time... However I do believe with good intentions of the day... The bible was conformed to encourage people to gather in a house of worship to change their behaviour and surrender themselves to God or else spend eternity with spiritual condemnation... I personally don't believe God is a vengeful God... The God I worship, is the God of Love and if you want to call him Buddha, Christian, Wiccan, Muslim, Mormon or whatever that's fine by me... Because the mission in life is not to know which one of the above is correct... The mission in life is family... And if you belong to a family and feel the love, joy and happiness that your family feels, whether its your family of friends, relations or church group... Then you belong to the family of God... Jesus said to Thomas, we are all the son of God... Jesus said to Thomas, you do not have to worship in the house to have God in your heart... The Gospel of Thomas was left out of the bible after being considered some 500 AD... Because it contradicted the other Apostles and the intentions of gathering people to change their social behaviours and devote their lives to the Christian faith... Ironically it was one man's decision to leave the Gospel of Thomas out of it and that man was a Roman... The Gospel of Thomas was one of the first known text supported in writing... Jesus considered Thomas a very enlighten man... This is just my opinion no offence intended and peace to you all.

DeviousAngel,
Don't let me stop you, I wouldn't dream of getting in your way here. That was never my objective. I only ask that when I comment, whether you agree or not, you don't turn it into an attack. I have valid points, many of which I tried to put forward. It was your response to those comments I found so surprising, that's all.

Jav

Jav,

I am not going to sit here and go back and forth with you anymore. I would really like to go back to the topic at hand. If you have anything worthwhile to contribute, please do. Otherwise you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and without point or purpose.

D/A,
Well I guess that makes us equals then, huh? I'll continue to post if you don't mind, and frankly, even if you do.

Jav

I am perfectly all right with that. 😊 This has been the only account I have ever used on this site. I have nothing to hide.

DeviousAngel,
That proves nothing. I challenge the same administrators of this site to check the aliases for each account holder, and how many they own. Now that would bring to light so much more than your suggestion would. And not just how many they own at this moment, but how many they have owned for the life of their account. How about that? Would that suit you better?

Jav

Jav,

I do not know what capabilities the admins have, but if they have access to the IP numbers associated with people's accounts on here, I invite them to compare all of the down rated votes against my IP (I have two, one at work and one at home) and determine whether or not it was me down voting all of your comments into hiding. If they find that is the case, then I hereby invite them to delete my account and ban my IP.

Hopefully that sheds some light on the subject.

I know I'm going to get bashed for even commenting but here it is. There are people on this board that are from many different religions even atheist and I think everyone should respect others views and agree to disagree and move on. It seems to me that what started out as a discussion turned into a religious war that nobodys going to win. Crap I can done here the red button being clicked. Hey you stop that clicking or I'm going to start preaching!

LOL bacchaegirl...

"The Enrichment Center once again reminds you that Android Hell is a real place where you will be sent at the first sign of defiance."

Miracles,
That argument would hold water if it weren't for the fact that all my comments were knocked down almost as soon as they were posted, as if there were something in what I said that has people worried others might see that I make a valid point. If anyone wants to check what I've had to say on this thread, all they need do is scroll through the pages and look for the only comments that have been hidden. I think the proof is just that, nothing more. If what I say is so awful, why don't you show me why it doesn't belong in this conversation? I was under the impression by Rook, that all were welcome to join in.
Jav

What does the space pope think of all this arguing? The space pope was chosen for a reason, we must go to him for enlightenment. We all know the robot devil is real, but you only need to worry about him if your a robot and you practice Robotology. So I think we can all agree that The Space Pope knows what's best, and the Robot Devil tortures bad robots.

Jav,

I am sorry but you do not really make much sense in your comment outside of making it clear that you want someone to fight with. And although I disagree with your statements personally, however you wish to demonize me, I am not responsible for hiding your comments. I think the statement made there is that there are people other than me in this world that disagree with you and/or think that your comments are quite childish. Of course, I can't really speak for anyone else, but that is my thoughts...

My inclusion of those passages from the Bible was not random. These things were in the context of, "these are things you should and should not do". If you feel that it is not relevant, however, that is your opinion and you have a right to think so. The verses I mentioned have been used by followers of various Christian sects to justify whether or not these things are sins.

If there is anything else I can help clarify for you, please let me know! ❤

Jav - at the risk of starting an argument here, which I'm definitely not trying to do, when I "knock someone down" it's because I disagree with what they're saying. Don't you think it's possible that maybe people actually disagreed with your comments, instead of "certain" people scheming behind your back to bury your comments?

It's a possibility, Jav.

There was a time when the voting down of one of my comments would have been a source of pain for me. Not in this thread though, here I see it as a badge of honor. And you guys did it in under 20 minutes! Congratulations! Now do you all feel like champions today? I am sure you haven't yet come to realize that doing so only proves my point.
Aaaah, persecution! Smells like VICTORY!

Miracles,
Out of context goes back to all her comments that include random Bible verses, on this thread and the original thread where it all started. My use of "out of context" goes to where the verse came from in the Bible, and what it meant there, not here. Sorry for any confusion that may have caused.

Jav

Oh yeah, burying my comments only proves I have hit a nerve. So what are you afraid of with my comments? That others might agree? And what if they do? You don't like discussion unless you are holding sway? You don't accept argument if it's proof you are wrong? Why so worried about what I say?

Jav - I generally try to stay out of religious discussions simply because of the arguments that always seem to arise, like these. I just want to say something about one of your comments.

You told Devious "Choosing random Bible verses, whether out of context or not, does not prove or show any wisdom." I guess my thought here, it's not a point exactly, is because much of the Bible is based on individual interpretation. So why would Devious's choice of Bible verses necessarily be out of context? Maybe to her they are relative to what she was talking about. Maybe her interpretation is different than yours or mine, Lou's, Rook's, cosmogal's, johntravis's, geetha's, BadJuuJuu's, or granny's.

I'll be the first one to admit that many of the verses in the Bible are confusing to me. I can read them and they mean something entirely different to me than they do to my dad, my sister and their individual preachers, as well as my brother who is a preacher.

Jav,

I know your aim here is to bait me and get me stirred up, probably because you sense that I am already a little frustrated at Lou's comment. However, I am sorry to disappoint you. 😊 I hope you are having a wonderful day!

D/A you're welcome. I just wanted to point that out because I believe your post was just mis-interpreted. I honestly did not see anything offensive with what you said. 😊

cosmo,

Thank you, very much. You are my heroine! 😊 I appreciate that you were able to take my opinions for what they were meant to be. I am also glad that I did not offend you, as that was not my intention here.

Lou, I am a Catholic. Was taught about God and Jesus from as far back as I can remember. I went to Catholic grammar and high school and received all the sacraments. I honestly did not take one bit of offence to what D/A just posted. I also just wanted to point out that she stated not All, but some in a few statements she made about how people project their beliefs. I agree with her statements about the evangelists and the harsh messages they sometimes send. I sat through surmons where the priest would yell, scream and pound his fist on the altar scolding us for something we didn't even know we did.

I also agree with D/A on the point she makes about the bible saying to go out and spread the word of the Lord. That is where these preachers and evangalists think they have just cause to bible bash others who believe differently. I myself get extremely annoyed when I'm on the bus or the subway and someone gets on and starts screaming about the end of the world and repent, find Jesus if you don't the fire's of hell will come for you. If I didn't run the risk of looking like the worst person in the world, or that the person happens to be a complete psycho I would scream at them to Shut Up!

To me, D/A's post didn't state that she made up her mind about All Christians. She pointed out a few things that some people do and the reasons behind why they do them.

Yes, I am a Catholic and am comfortable with my faith. Over time I learned not to take things at face value, keep an open mind, and make my own decisions. As I am sure most people do. 😊

Lou,

I am getting awfully tired of people who come on here to take part in the conversation and get all defensive, as if I were personally attacking you. NO, I am not lumping you into that category. I was describing my dealings with a majority (not ALL, but majority) of deeply religious individuals from the Christian walk of life. I do not hate Christians, nor do I hate any individual people. I think that takes too much energy which could be used in far more productive ways. I do hate the ACTIONS of certain people, but I am not classifying you personally among them. I have always had a lot of respect for your comments and input.

Do I like to argue? YES! Yes I do. Because I think it opens the opportunity for logical, sane discussion. The whole point of me throwing these statements out there is "LOOK guys! This is my opinion. PROVE ME WRONG! If you disagree with me, tell me why!" And yet with the exception of many of the excellent comments and explanations from individuals like Rook who actually had the damn good grace to explain their points of view, there are people like you who take everything as a face-value attack instead of looking beyond your upset to LEVELLY partake in the discussion.

I quoted things from the Bible, the literal foundation of every Christian faith out there. There are things that people of EVERY religion do that I do not like or agree with, and I am sure that goes for the same in reverse. I am stating the foundation for why I feel the way I do, and presenting the opportunity for it to be described to me differently, or for others to help me understand how I am misinterpreting these things.

And I would appreciate it if you would give me the chance to defend my intentions before you go off about how I am some close-minded angry person who just looks for opportunities to hurt people's feelings. If that is how you feel about me, then so be it, I will not waste my time discussing these matters with you.

Jav,
God DID tell me to love everyone;)...kidding, and right back at you.
I just think tolerance should be practiced... Not just spoken.

Lou

DA,

So do I classify as one of the fanatics you so despise?

You claim to be tolerant of all and curious to a fault... But it is obvious you have made up your mind about ALL Christians... So which is worse, a devoted follower or a rabid non-believer? It seems that if you were as openminded as you claim, you wouldn't take such offense. If my practices are truly mine alone, why the need to stand opposed everytime my kind wish to express?

I don't prescribe to your beliefs and if anything have been hurt by more hypocritic Wiccans than any combination of religions put together... But I'm not holding that against you. I'm sorry that the history of Christianity has held up when others are less reviled... But there are bad people in every sect, religion and belief... But it really isn't my fault if your tormentors were Christian anymore than it is that mine were Wiccan.

You are correct... My God wants as many people saved as possible... Because regardless of their beliefs he loves them all. Other than that... Your last post does not reference anything I believe or prescribe to. His Word does lay out the plan for a righteous follower, but he paved the way for everyone regardless of their shortcomings.
I don't have to love people's beliefs or lifestyles to love them... And neither does my God. Anyone who preaches otherwise is selling their agenda under the guise of the Word. And if being labeled a sinner is something you take such great offense to, you only share that status with every human on earth... And we are all getting over it.

Lou

Lou,

I understand what you are saying, and I would agree... IF the majority of people practiced what they preached. Unfortunately, most do not. I know that humans are imperfect and I cannot think of any one religion where people always live up to the ideal. But there are a few things I would like to point out, and I am not singling out any one sect but ALL Christ-based faiths in general.

1. More evangelism than any other religion. How many times has a Buddhist or a Wiccan tried to convert someone to their religion? How many times have you heard them say "if you do not believe in in the Buddha/Goddess, you will go to Hell." Not all Christians are evangelists, but many are. I believe in teaching by example. If someone just IS a good person, I am more likely to want to be a part of whatever they are a part of so that I can be more like them. I do not need to be told to believe in one deity or another.

2. Suppression of the natural human instincts under the guise that they are Satanic temptations. This one is a little sketchy because it does not apply to all Christian sects, but it does apply mostly to Catholicism and a few of the more restrictive branches (including JW). Many of these religions claim that "self-love" (if you get my drift) and sex outside of marriage, even in a devoted and monogamous relationship, is a sin. At the risk of sounding vulgar, let me put it this way: would you buy a car before you test-drive it? Sex is not 100% of the relationship or even 50% of it, but it is a significant % and a consideration before you tie the knot. If intimacy is going to be uncomfortable or bad, it could lead to marital problems in the future and inevitably divorce... Which in some of the mentioned religions is also frowned upon.

3. High and mighty attitudes. Again, this is based on the individual and does not apply to everyone, but it is something I see VERY often. The general upturned nose if you are not a follower, and comments along the lines of "well I have Jesus on MY side". People who look at nonbelievers like they are lesser people, and believe their poo doesn't stink like everyone else's just because they regularly attend church and/or Bible Study.

Why are these things that I have brought up? Well, because the Bible specifically tells people to be this way.

Promoting evangelism:

Matthew 28:19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Sex before marriage/"self-love" of the sexual nature:

1 Corinthians 6:13: "The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body"

Verse 18: "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."

Ephesians 5:3: "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

2 Corinthians 6:14-17: "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord."

geetha - this actually goes along with what granny said. My daughter's dad was a very prejudiced man. Please don't ask me why I was involved with him. Bad, bad situation. Anyway, we are "color blind," which basically means we don't see skin color. This also includes religion, fads, sexuality, etc. My children and I like/love people for who they are, not what they look like or who they choose to worship, if anyone at all.

I taught my daughter that, despite what her dad tried to teach her, we don't choose our friends by what's on the outside. It's what's on the inside that counts. My son has never had that problem. He has a different dad who isn't prejudiced, thank God.

Thanks Javelina...didn't realise there was a sister site. I will certainly check it out.

Louslips, I have mentioned a couple of times that I have no issue with the religion at all, just a small minority of those who preach it. And the only peaceful followers that I had a slight issue with are the ones who blindly follow. The ones that have issues with homosexuality because "God does" and then in the same breath say that God created everything (including homosexuals?)

Geetha - I agree that parents can influence their children with their own archaeic beliefs. And that will continue for a few generations to come. I just think that every generation has less and less until eventually there will not be a significant amount. And with races mixing and producing children, who would a half black/half white kid be racist against? Blacks or Whites?

Devious - That is kind of what I was getting at about Judas, but I was mainly putting forward the thought that maybe we go through like like little remote control cars havin no control over our actions or thoughts. And maybe the Judas and Peter stories might suggest that too

[at] johntravis28,
I've been following your narrative, and you do have some interesting ideas. And since you bring up the big bang theory, and I myself have a huge interest in the string theory, I thought you might like to read another of Rooks stories. It's on the sister sight, and here is a link to it if you are interested:

Http://www.psychic-experiences.com/real-psychic-story.php?story=6281

Keep an open mind in all things,
Jav

All,
I've enjoyed reading most of this debate that I believe I may have unintentionally started with redphx long ago...anyways. Most of the theories are pretty insightful, some not so much.
I do have a question for all who choose to answer. Religions, corrupt preachers, warmongers for God, know-it-alls, sinners through the week-holy on Sundayers, and overbearing bible thumpers aside... Has God's word ever told a sane person to do or be bad. Serial killers and abortion clinic bombers are doing the opposite of everything God stands for; so no matter who's voice they claim they hear... It aint God. So of the normal people you know, are any of them suffering for being followers?
My point is, what do you have to lose? Modern day Christians are capable of free thought, free will and can use logic along with faith to guide them through this world without blindly idealizing and damning everyone else to hell. So, if heaven is a lie and there is no big payoff, the worst that happens to you is that you live your life righteous, honest, and good.
And if heaven isn't a lie, you have everything to lose by not believing. If you all did not believe in life after death, you wouldn't be on this website. I am very thankful to enjoy your company now; but I prefer to enjoy it forever.

Lou

geetha: I have to agree, but on the other hand, there are people like me who grew up with this ignorance in their daily lives, who chose to raise their children differently... I think the "Baby Boomers" have a lot to do with the change of the tide... Hippies that we are! 😆...We're cool like that ❤

johntravis28,
I admit that the younger generation is being more accepting of others that are not the same as them but you also have to think about the fact the most influence that the older generation have on the younger generation. I'm not saying everyone is like that but there are a selected few that chose to be ignorant to the day their die and would do anything to pass over the unreasonable opinions to everybody and anybody that would listen.

Rook, johntravis, Teddy and BJJ - you guys (and gal!) are all very intelligent people and I truly enjoy your points of view. 😊 I love some of the points brought up here.

I think BJJ's opinions are very similar to mine. I think the names that we give the gods, goddesses and even the creatures said to descend from their creation--these are all just things that we have used as a label to personify something intangible, in the same way that we give emotions labels like love, hate, anger, happiness and sadness. Those things are intangible and the only way to describe them is to feel them. Try describing the color red to someone who has never seen it.

Johntravis, your point about Judas is an excellent one. Let's say for argument's sake that it was by free will that Judas betrayed Jesus, yet he was forewarned that he would do it. In a way, that is taking away his free will because even though he believes that he will not, the power of suggestion may have been responsible for his decision. In a way, he may have been guided by that foretelling, and what if he would not have taken that path unless he felt he was doomed to? Self-fulfilling prophecy seems to be the acting phrase here.

There is an article I found that illustrates a different point of view that I thought also plausible in the case of Judas.

Http://collegecafe.10.forumer.com/a/what-was-judas-sin_post955.html

If you don't want to read the whole thing, here is the part I felt most made sense:

"Judas' sin was final impenetance. He sold Christ out for money and then knew that he had done wrong. But this is not what doomed him. He still could have asked for Christ's forgiveness and it would've been granted as it was to Peter. His act of suicide is what doomed him. He decided that what he had done, his betrayal of Christ, was deserving of death. He never even sought God's forgiveness because he thought that there was no way he could be forgiven; that is pride. We cannot believe that we are incapable of forgiveness because in that act we are saying that we are greater than God in judging ourselves undeserving of His gift forgiveness. Then he killed himself. In the act of suicide the hope is that the person committing the act can escape themselves and their misery. When they discover that their souls are immortal and that they cannot escape themselves that, in itself, becomes their eternal torment."

Although Judas committed several sins, (betrayal of Christ and the Holy Spirit, greed, suicide) I believe his ultimate sin was "pride"...He felt he had done something that was unforgivable in God's book... He was so full of guilt, but not guilt about what he'd done to Jesus; guilt about "what will become of ME?; how will His death effect ME?; why was "I" the one chosen to do this?"...He felt he deserved the harshest punishment...

Hey~

BadJuuJuu - Your views sound very similar to "Taoism", Wiki it.

As far as Judas' sinning goes, the only sin I think he made, from what I know of the story, was suicide. Forfilling Jesus' will could of course just be our perception of the story, but it seems most logical from what we know.

I'm going to try to explain my opinion on the existence of God. I'll probably just trip over my words trying, but meh, here goes.
I believe in the All, the spark of energy that gives life to everyone and everything. As the name All implies, all energy, good, bad neutral, everything, comes from this source. The All itself is neither good or bad, but we can use the energy it gives to do or bad depending on our choice.
It's a very simple, though complicated idea, that good and bad, love and hate, life and death can all come from the same energy source, and that's where the Deities come in. I think that the various Deities from all pantheons, including Christian, are a subconscious attempt to simplify the All. Good and bad can't come from the same source, right? It defies logic, doesn't it? So we have Gods and Goddesses of birth, home, healing, protection, love, and Deities of war, death, etc. The Christians have God and his angels, and Satan and his demons. Each Deity reflects a bit of the All, makes a few aspects of that infinite energy source comprehensible, but is still only a reflection of part of that Everything.
That's not my full opinion on the subject, the rest is just too difficult to put into words lol.
The true sin of Judas? Hm, he fulfilled the will of Jesus, did what he was meant to do, so I don't think the "betrayal" was the true sin. Maybe the self-loathing, the inability to forgive himself for doing what he was meant to do. If I remember the story right, Judas threw away the silver didn't he? Maybe his sin was wasting what could have been used for good.

Hiya. I was referring to re-incarnation, and the rest of this sentence is to fill space so it can be posted

Hey johntravis,
When you said about experiencing things over many lives, was you refering to reincarnation, or reflecting on the past of humans via books?

-Teddy

Hi Teddy, and welcome to this discussion which Rook was kind enough to host.

I semi-agree with your views on the Universe. I am a bit of a Universe freak and I love the science of it. But admittedly there are a lot of questions that science can't answer. Like the big bang was apparantly from an atom. Where did the atom come from? The Universe is expanding... What is it expanding into? Now just because we can't answer these questions doesn't automatically mean a God element, but it also shouldn't be ruled out.

I am not religious either (at least to organised religions) and you will see from previous posts from myself and others a few excellent theories about life the after life and Gods. You mention the idea that people say God can't exist because of all the suffering in the world. Well going back to my theory in a previous post, we are here to experience everything over many lives. So in order for that to happen you must also experience suffering. So far from suffering showing the absence of a God, suffering in fact is necessary for every soul to experience everything possible

Now that's a question! And I could talk for hours on this (I won't though). Judas' sin was NOT betraying Jesus. Any scriptures I have read or been told about say that from the time Jesus went to the desert to find himself, he knew everything that was going to happen leading up to his crucifixion. His mission then was for this to happen so he could die in exchange for the salvation of humanity. Therefore, Jesus would have wanted and needed Judas to betray him as it would have become his will. SO you can't hold that against him. So REALLY his only sin was his suicide.

I'm not sure if it's just me here that sees things this way, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

I think "worshipping" a God, defies the point in some respects. If Gods' exist to be worshipped, or unconditionally respected, then I think that's very misleading and can inact wrong behaviour issues, especially to the young that need reassurance early on in life.

As far as that point that people so commonly throw out, about how God can't possibly exist, because humans abuse their bodies and get sick then die, or get disease then die, or behave badly towards others - and possibly kill them, then they'll die. I think this is a very narrow minded view practiced by those effected by those who fall victim to the mindset I spoke of above.

I assume even a "God" can make rational mistakes, and isn't capable of doing "everything". Infact, I think to assume otherwise would be quite narrow in nature.

Though in all honesty, I'm not religious at all nor do I openly claim God doesn't exist. I'd say the universe is too complex to have grown from a "Big Bang", and that "Nature" alone can't program things like "Evolution" without some sort of intelligent influence. I tell people they cannot blame a God for disease, or other people's negative ways, or anything negative that happens in life - because of my views that "God" does not mean "Endless ability" to me.

Anyhow, that's my piece thrown out there. I welcome all opinions on it if any at all~

-Teddy

johntravis,

Interesting you should bring this point up, I was recently doing some research concerning Judas and your timing seems impeccable.

So let's see...

I feel this is less of an example of 'the lack of free will' and more of an example of His 'Divinity' or to keep this 'Non-religious' for those who view him as merely a Prophet or Man with a Good Message...

He confronts both men with the Future... Was it a Precognitive Dream? Prophetic Vision? Which ever, What ever you want to call it, He gives both men time to 'think' about what is going to happen. He actually gives them a chance to exercise their Free Will by choosing to do the opposite of what he has 'seen' will happen. But both men choose to act in what seems to be their 'best interest'. (I'll explain that in more detail if asked...)

Now let me pose a Question to you... (and any one else who wants to answer)

What was Judas's Real Sin?

I'll post my opinion during my next shift...

Respectfully,

Rook

Hi Rook,

There has always been one part of the whole Jesus story that struck me as odd though. You mention about the free will aspect which seems apparant, but one part of the story slightly suggests otherwise.

Jesus had told Judas that he would betray him which he denied but then did. Now that could have just been Judas getting found out, but whatever. The main bit that bothers me is Jesus told Peter that he would deny him 3 times before the rooster crows. Peter had no intention of doing this but did exactly as was said, suggesting that MAYBE he didn't actually have the ability not to. Like it's one thing predicting what is going to happen, but to say it to the guy and then him do it anyway whether he wanted to or not doesn't suggest free will.

Again I put this forward simply for discussion purposes, not saying this is what I believe or anything.

Devious and Geetha - while racism and homophobia are still a MAJOR problem I think that it is a dying art. With people being more freely gay, the increased immigration around the world, and borders being more open than they previously were (especially in the EU), I think people are now forced to acknowledge adversity from a young age therefore be used to it and not fear it.

I do think though that some laws that pretend to help really aren't. Like for example, let's say I'm a white male thug, and I decide that I am going to go outside and beat up the first person that I come accross. If this is another white male from my country it is assault, if it is a person from a different country or ethnicity then it is a race hate crime even though it really wouldn't have been. This I feel just incites hatred among different groups.

You know, I aught to run for elected office... I think my views on things may even shock my church...

Lets start here...

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

I'll put it a bit differently...

I am but a 'man' who am I to 'take away' (by passing a law) a persons right to choose for themselves?

Gay Marriage... Personal choice... An individual has the right to choose whom they want to spend their time with / share their finances with ect...

Abortion...Personal choice... A woman has the right to make this decision on her own... (Though I do feel that if the pregnancy is far enough along that a viable birth is possible then the mother should put the child up for adoption if she does not want the child... For me it would be 'murder' to terminate a pregnancy if the child could survive outside the womb...)

It doesn't matter what my personal feelings on these topics are... I am just a man... A man who believes in Heavenly Father (God) and Heavenly Father gave to mankind one gift that makes all the difference in the world... He gave mankind 'Free Will', the ability to know right from wrong and to choose for oneself which action to take. I cannot take away this God given gift from anyone... That sets me up as being 'more powerful' than God and I'm not.

It doesn't take a belief in 'God' to understand that each individual has free will and to take that away from them, unless a crime has been committed (that opens another kettle of fish...) is wrong.

I'll repeat...

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Anyway, thanks again for such open and honest discussion, this has been Great.

Respectfully,

Rook

DeviousAngel,
I know what you mean. What can we do? This is the 21st century and there are still people who act like they are from the medieval times. I guess their time hasn't come yet for change and we just have to sit back and wait. Also, I saw that in one of your posts you mentioned the Westboro Baptist Church. I became interested so I went to my trusted Wikipedia to read up on the church and WOW! I didn't even know that people like these can scoop that low. That is crazy. I guess what goes around will come around and one day they will have to face the music.

Did you have make a video of the program you did in grade 3/4. I would love to see that?

geetha,

I am so sorry that you experienced such prejudice. I hear about these stories and wish I was present for some of them, because let me tell you, no one messes with my friends.

I learned to respect other cultures at a very young age. I went to a private elementary school owned by a family from Sri Lanka and they were some of the nicest people I have ever met. During one of our promotion ceremonies, I believe from 3rd to 4th grade, one of the teachers (who was also from Sri Lanka) helped put together costumes for all of the kids and taught us the choreography for a customary dance. It was the coolest thing ever and the parents loved it! After that I grew very interested in other cultures, and I remember I had another teacher who was from Ireland. She would occasionally bring in colcannon (or c

Yeah I've heard a lot of horrendous stories like that of people refusing to get on planes with Muslims after the Word Trade Centre thing. It beggars belief really!

I've seen Eddie Izzard before actually (on TV not live) quite a funny guy. And you are correct again about the hypocricies hurting the church. I know that part of the reason I turned away from it (apart from boredom at church) was how can I listen to the teachings of people who practice the exact opposite? I ain't no foolish sheep! And I think a lot of people thought the same, even though it is not the fault of the religion, just the folk that teach it, and only a minority of them!

DeviousAngel,

I understand where you are coming from and it's not limited to Christianity. I was born and raised as a Hindu and although, I was born in Sri Lanka, I was raised in Canada. I love the country but there are certain people that just gets my nerves. I have been called everything under the moon and the most popular one is "Paki". When I was younger, it hurt because I didn't why these people were saying that but then one of my grade school teachers explained to me that many of these people are so ignorant that they don't realize what they are saying. I also learnt that if I don't stand my ground, these people will walk all over you.

The worse was after the 9/11 attacks. Hindus and Muslims from the Asian area have many of the similar clothing styles and you should see the stares and the comments behind your back if you were that type of clothing in public. I remember one time, I had school so I couldn't go directly with my family to the Hindu temple, so I told them that I would meet them there as I couldn't miss class due to exam reviews. After class, I changed to my culture clothes and took the bus to the temple. There was this guy on the bus who took one look at me and told me that stupid Muslims like me should be on the bus because we probably blow it up and told me to get off. Everyone else just stared with the mouths open. I told the guy to F off and that not all Muslims are like that and that he should stop being a racist and get his facts straight before talking because I wasn't a Muslim but a Hindu and that I value my life to bomb it up. I also told him that extremest like him are the once who did that kind of stuff. The driver was a good guy and kicked that guy off the bus.

You want to know something else. It's not only the general public or the churches that are being stupid; colleges and universities are doing it do. One of my childhood friends is gay. After high school, we lost touch but got reconnected and he told me that he was in the closet about his sexuality and he finally came out and he feared that I would reject him. I told that I came friends with because he was a good guy and not because he was gay. After talking for a while he told me that he was in school to do Physiology and that he switch universities because he came out of the closet when he went to the original university here in Canada and people that he thought were his friends were avoiding him. Two of the guys he hung out with told him that they didn't want him checking them out or hitting on them so they didn't want to hang out with him. Those two guys went as far as harassing him about his sexuality to the point where my friend went and complained to one of his professors who usually nice to him. He got a shock when the professor answered. He said that this is what you get for being gay and coming out of the closet. (I was like wtf). My friend then went to the Dean and filed a complain and the Dean didn't do anything saying that it would like bad on the school and he wouldn't allow a bad reputation come to it because he (my friend) could man up. So my friend told the Dean that he was going to burn in hell and that the school was going to do the same. He then switched schools.

I finally got him to agree to see a lawyer about put a complain against the university. It wasn't right what he went though and I was really pissed off that he had to go though that.

What has this world come to?

johntravis,

There is a comedian I have had the pleasure of seeing live named Eddie Izzard. That guy is a trip. He is hilarious and he is also a cross-dresser! One of the things I like best about him is how well-versed he is in politics and religion. In one of his skits he talks about the Church of England. Back in the middle ages the Church of England was a sort of theocracy, and these days he describes it as "more of a hobby". The attendance has gone down to a very small percent of people.

I think the hypocracies are what hurts organized religions the most. It is a very difficult thing to practice what you preach, especially if what you are preaching is not something you believe in. I think too many people are encouraged to conform rather than to think and decide for themselves. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness (as I have already told you, but not many others) and let me tell you, one of the biggest no-no's is questioning the Bible or the Elders of the congregation. To ask questions is to lack faith, which to a young girl attending elementary school goes against what we are taught. We are not taught to "assume", or to simply believe in anything unless we understand why it is that way. If nothing else, I can say that I took that away from school when I left--the desire to learn and understand still burns very strongly within me, and ever will.

Aye. Sometimes it is difficult not to tar everybody with the same brush. I think Hypocrysy is the word od the century when it comes to some organised religions. Like the violent demonstrators you mentioned, or the priest that preaches love while showing a very different kind of love to young children. If you want to get a true depiction of what the catholic church has done to Ireland over the years, read up about the Magdalene Laundries... Also featured in a motion picture called "The Magdalene Sisters". Another film called "Song for a Raggy Boy" drives the message home aswell about why more and more people are turning away from organised religion in this country anyway. Like at one point in Ireland it would have been unheard of not to attend church AT LEAST every Sunday... Now I don't know a single person that does!

Rook,

I appreciate that you are an open book when it comes to this topic, and I think it is wonderful that you don't shy away from disagreement. 😊 Thank you for the information and links you have provided. I enjoy reading about your experiences.

Johntravis,

I am glad that you mentioned the influence religion has had on legislation in your country, because I feel that may be part of the reason why I am so bitter against organized religions. It is because of religious beliefs that there are so many struggles that my country is embroiled in as well, which is ironic because we are supposed to be the #1 proponent of religious freedom.

The politicians and law-makers of the States have been struggling with what counts as fundamental rights protected by the Constitution for a long time now. California in particular has been struggling with the issue of gay marriage for a long time, as well as abortion and the death penalty. We are a state that enforces the death penalty, but do you know how much of a joke it is? Appeal after appeal keeps the state spending millions upon millions of dollars per year on inmates who are simply enjoying shelter and a free meal in exchange for the most heinous crimes while waiting on death row.

Now I understand the arguments of others against these things, I really do. In fact, I believe the death penalty is more of a social issue than a religious one. But as far as gay marriages and abortions are concerned, those topics are purely driven by religious purposes. There is a large population of California who are deeply religious, who have not only VIOLENTLY campaigned against these things, but use smear tactics like spreading lies about how these issues will hurt people's children and such. That kind of thing is pure hypocracy, and they use their religion to incite fear within people. An example of that (although it isn't as common in Cali because the tolerance level for stupidity here seems slightly lower than some other states) is the Westboro Baptist Church. Those people are monsters. It is those types of religious zealots that ruin it for the people who DO focus on being a good person, as granny said. No, I do not judge all Christians by that, nor do I judge all Muslims by the acts of some terrorist organizations or anything like that. But when there are enough people who do those things having an impact on society, it's difficult to ignore the stigma created by those types of hypocracies.

thanks for the recommendation Rook! I'll certainly check that book out.

johntravis,

Astral Projection can be learned, I myself had to learn how to do it. Here is the Title and Author of the book I used...

The Llewellyn Practical Guide to Astral Projection: The Out-of -Body Experience by Melita Denning and Osborne Phillips.

There are 'gifts' people have... Things like Empathy and Precognitive Dreams fall into this category. Then there are things you can learn... These include Lucid Dreaming, Remote Viewing and using Tarot Cards.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Rook

Good Morning (afternoon/evening/night depemding on where you are in the world!)

BJJ - I wasn't trying to suggest that I think that is what the image a likeness means. I was saying that modern day mother church preaches it that way. And that is something that has possibly been obscured along with what was mentioned in earlier posts about the "Virgin" Mary and the description of God as being "He". I personalythink that image and likeness quote was invented by the church as a way of making them more God-like themselves.

Redphx - You think it's bad that the "da Vinci code"was banned by your church? In Ireland, up until relatively recently, the movie "The Life of Brian" was banned for being blasphemous! Contraception was only made legal in the early 80s, divorce was only made legal in the mid to late 90s, playboy in 1995 and abortion is still illegal! That is how much influence the church has had on my wee country! This Astral Projection thing I'm not majorly familiar with. Is it something anybody can learn to do or just the gifted few?

I do think though that people place FAR too much importance on which faith they follow. I feel it is best to use religious doctrines as a way of getting ideas if you like, but the most divine faith you can have is the one that comes from within you.

First I'd like to thank everyone for such a wonderful discussion. By bringing all our points of view together in one place we can better understand each other and perhaps there will be less 'strife' on peoples experiences because we 'know' a persons Point of View. I'd also like to thank those who have referred books, Great suggestions and research promotes understanding.

My quest for understanding began... Heck when I was 7-8 years old and had my first experience. (Please see http://www.yourghoststories.com/real-ghost-story.php?story=4312)

Then I was brought up in two churches... One being Roman Catholic the other Baptist... The first would host a 'Fall Festival' and roll up the beer trucks on Saturday... Then Sunday Confession's and right back out to the beer trucks... I thought...'Uh...point of order... One confesses of their sins, and promises to FORSAKE them (give them up) it's not a 'wash, rinse, repeat' cycle. Then when I was 12 in the Baptist Church... Go from Sunday School to 'Big Church' listen to the Minister TELL the Congregation what the WORD was... Go home read the same verses and have a completely different understanding of what they mean... I left the Church... Would rather sit under a tree made by the Creator (God) and read the bible and pray for understanding... (Matthew 7:7-8 7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.)

I became a Solo Practicing Wiccan. Through Prayer and Research develop a belief system that, at least to me works across the board. 20 Years ago... (19...21? Lol Man I love my Wife) I met a woman who introduced me to her church and everything I'd come to understand through Practice and Research was given a 'shape' or 'focus'...or at least more than I had given it on my own. (I still do not quite 'cotton' to everything but Practice and Research continue...).

Here is a link that may help bring understanding as I do not think I can post the whole thing here... (Granny? Martan? Any Mod?)

Http://www.psychic-experiences.com/real-psychic-story.php?story=6281

I'm quite enjoying this discussion let's keep it going...

Respectfully,

Rook

granny - you truly are a wonderful person and you are 100% right that believing in yourself is one of the most important things that a lot of people miss. They try so hard to rely on gods/goddesses for help, acceptance, comfort, protection, wealth, love and this list goes on. They don't believe in themselves anymore.

I was at my husbands aunts house and she has some kids over to watch the football game. I looked over and one of the kids was praying. I asked him what he was praying for and he said "I want my team to win." That little shiat! I told him that god is not a genie. I don't know where people decided that god was a genie and they could just pray for stuff and get it. Or the Catholics who go to confession. They do something bad, confess, then do it again! They think that they can just keep doing bad things over and over and they will be forgiven. Not to think about the harm that they themselves do to others when they act so selfish. People have taken away all of their belief in themselves and turned God into a genie. W.T.F. It that!?

Lots of great points made here... But for me, what it all comes down to is: who do I have the most trust and faith in?...To that I say: me...Gods/Goddesses can strengthen your resolve, give you somewhere to place your problems, give you solice in times of sorrow, and receive thanks in times of joy... It takes me to know when I should admit to weakness, and how to know when I'm troubled or sad, and when to be joyful and thankful... My God hears me even though I follow no-one's doctrine, creed, and method of pennance, nor do I attend church or even feel the need to...Which, I feel, most people do so in order to maintain the faith within themselves... They need to be reassured of their beliefs, and need to know they're not alone in those beliefs... If that's what they need, then who am I to say they're wrong?...It's not for me, because I trust myself to follow the path of a decent human being...
I have my flaws, as many of you can attest to 😆...But, basically, I'm a good person...That's what every religion is based upon... The quest to be the best person you can be... Pity that some have become so engrossed in their brand of what a good person is that they've butchered the fundamentals...

As far as evidence of modern day miracles, all I need to do is look into the eyes of my children and grand-children, and I think to myself, "I did that! I created that person"... ❤

redphx,
I heard of that before. My aunt told me about it. I remember thinking how it was really true. I just like to remind people that it's just not only the leaders of a church that abuse children. My mom recently told me that a priest in a Hindu temple in Scarborough, Ontario was sexually abusing kids. Just irritates the hell out of me that people that are in a position to religiously lead people are doing this. But I guess like you quote mentions "...it's a hospital for sinners", did doesn't matter what religion and what religious house it is, there will always be sinners.

redphx,
Sorry I just got back on now, so, to answer your question. (1) twins run in the family on my cousin's wife side, and (2) My cousin's wife was going though some treatments but I didn't ask what treatment she was taking because I knew it was a sensitive issue and after Mina died, I didn't think she was ready to talk about having more children.

Johntravis28,
This is what you get for conversing with people all over the world. I, talk to my another cousin of mine in Australia and sometimes I forget that he is 14 hours ahead of me.

Also, I was raised as a Hindu and we are a big believers in reincarnation. According to the trusted family astrologist, I have done many good things in my pass and present life, that this is my last life and when I die, I will be in an external bliss. That would be nice!😆

Background story: There was a man who went to church and taught the bible study. Aparently he was molesting the kids. Everyone was shocked because they asked, 'How could a man of the church, a man of God do this?'

The minister of the church said this 'Church is not a hotel for saints. It is a hospital for sinners.' This was the best description of church that I could ever hear.

I definitely agree with you there BJJ. Anyone who takes ANY religious doctrine for face-value is doing themselves and their faith a disservice. I do believe there are a lot of good lessons to be learned, both by reading religious text and by observing the world around us... But I believe observation and critical thinking have the strongest power over anything else. We have brains, and we were meant to use them to decide and to make sense of things.

johntravis28

My husband used to be Catholic as well. He grew up in a very strict catholic family. I mean so strict that they went along with their churches idea to ban The DaVinci Code. I remember that when we were first together we would have long fights about baptizing our children (who weren't even born yet) I didn't think it was necessary and he wanted the kids raised catholic. I found that being raised Catholic had made him closed off to other ideas like you said. However one day he just snapped out of it and starting to view things in a more open fashion. He know believes in most of the stuff that I do. He has formed some of his own opinions too.

Reincarnation is an interesting subject. A lot of religions do believe in some form of it. The only reason that I know it happens is because I was actually shown two of my past lives. One I remember very very well. It didn't end too good for me. The other one I don't remember all the much that happened but I don't think I really cared at the time. I can't remember. That is one thing about projecting is that I sometimes can't remember every detail of what I was told/shown. I think that people can reincarnate as many times as they need to in order to get it right. It is all on the path to enlightenment or to whatever job you want to do over there.

I actually think the Christian god is the same god as all the other ones. Every faction just labels him different. That is why I always laugh when people argue about whose god is better. They are the same thing. It's just like every culture speaks a different language and they all have sky named different and that sky is special to each culture in its own way but it is still just a sky. The same sky that we all look at. My sky couldn't possibly be better than their sky because it is the same one. I call it sky and they call it something else. Doesn't matter. As far as the other deities, they exist as well but they are like sub deities. But the one and only god is the same across the board. That is just how I view it.

Gonna throw my two cents in on the "created in the image of God." I doubt that refers to human appearance at all. I think what that refers to is that we have intelligence and free will. We have knowledge of right and wrong, and choose every day whether to follow right or wrong. That knowledge and ability to make that choice is what puts humans in the "image" of deity.
The Bible is largely metaphorical. I think the "literal interpretation" that many churches preach about is a path to the Dark Side. Sorry, Star Wars moment. What I'm trying to say, Deity challenges us, challenges our minds and our understanding, makes us think and reason things out. Discarding the metaphorical aspect of the Bible in favor of literal interpretation hinders our abilities to reason out spiritual issues. We lose the ability to think things through, and just look for answers on a page. As Trix pointed out, the Bible is a guide. A powerful guide, when one applies thought and rationalization to the metaphors. There are a lot of great lessons in the Bible, but those lessons only have meaning if we can see the truth in the lesson rather than get wrapped up in the story. Every Christian I have met who believes in literal interpretation has overlooked the lessons in the Bible in favor of just reading and quoting it. And insisting to all and sundry it's true exactly as written, no thinking required. Why would we have rational minds if we weren't meant to use them? We do an injustice to ourselves as well as Deity by refusing to apply our minds and think, to understand the meaning to the metaphor.
Also as Trix mentioned, every translation changes it. There are words in some languages that don't have a true counterpart in other languages. The translators have to just choose words as close as the can, and over years and many translations a lot of things change from the original meaning. This is another reason to look at the Bible as a metaphorical guide rather than as a literal truth.

I am so busy these days but I just jumped in to see what is going on and geez-a lot is going on here on Rooks' page. Thanks rook for the opportunity to communicate with each other without fighting. I know many people don't understand me because I have such a crazy way in how a see the whole world and everything that goes around with it. I know sometimes people think I'm cruel, and I'm really sorry because I don't want anyone to be unhappy, and I don't mean to offense anyone.

I'm a Christian, but if I will be in a Christian church they will through me out because of the way I see religion. I see the Bible as a guideline. I believe the Bible is written over and over by humans, and lot damage is done on the original message of God. Each time a new version of the Bible comes out there is some changes with it. For instance in my old Bible in Genesis 1:30 it is written that God created animals with living souls, but in the new version nothing like that is mention.

I do believe what is written in 1John 4:7- Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. I also do believe that there are many things we humans don't know or even understand yet because is written in Cor. 12:1-4 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whenever it was in the body or out of body I do not know-God knows, and I know that this person whatever in the body or apart from the body I do not know but God knows-was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that humans are not permitted to tell.

There are many things we as humans don't know yet. We can all say this and that, but where is the 100% proof. If you didn't experienced Gods' power yet then you won't know what it is all about my friend.

My father was healed of cancer, my grandfather was so close to God, but also experienced the paranormal and Christian believes is that ghosts doesn't exist. I can actually write a book about everything that has happened in my family. My grandfather had a near death experience, or shall I say a death experience where he saw God and our deceased relatives and his friends. He came back. It was such a shock to all of us, but something happened that was from out of this world. If you didn't experience the power of God yet you will not know what it is all about or how it feels.

If anyone just think about what is going on beyond our solar system-It's amazing. There is definitely a higher power. Just look at the biggest star in the universe. Earth cannot even be seen if you look at this star. It's BIG out there that's all I know. We as humans quarrel about pity things. There is much to learn. Sorry for this long post. Trix.

Ns. Javelina, sorry what happened to you and your mother, don't worry. Your mother is a great person. She followed God and not the law of humans in a church building. No offense. Churches can be cruel as well it happened in my family as well. A church is just a building. Some people can sit in church, but they can be wicked. My point is that it is not the church that will save you. It is yourself that will save you on the end of the day. Trix ❤

johntravis,

That is an excellent point you make! I do not think that God would look like a bacteria. 😆 I think that the "God created us in his image" thing was implemented by the vanities of man. We like to believe that we are the superior species on this planet, so of course it goes without saying that we would suggest God would look like us because, well, why not? Who will contest it?

I do not think that God or any of the gods would look like people. I think they are amassings of energy and would not really have a form so much as a presence and a voice. I believe that we envision them in a way that we feel we can associate with, one that we can trust. That is why I feel Jesus was such an important figure. He was someone that people could identify with, someone who was on the level of the average person. He was not some illuminated godly figure that would have terrified people, or else no one would ever have followed him or listened to him. I think he was just a person like you or I, and he was at the peak of his spiritual quest.

Fair enough. Question well answered. Another way we could potentially look at it is this. Was anybody ever in a room somewhere and the air conditioning fan broke down, and it's only when the noise stopped that you realised you could hear it at all? Taking this angle, maybe we can see and hear God everywhere, but we have become so acustomed to his appearance and voice now that we would only notice it if it stopped.

Like how do we know whether or not we can see God when we don't know what he looks like? Some passages say that we are created in the image and likeness of God. Based on this people presume that God then must look like us. But at the moment in history that life arrived on this planet, which could be considered the moment life was created by God in His image and likeness, life was in bacterial form...

Again this isn't what I believe myself as stated before. Just other theories I have heard that lend themselves to this group discussion

johntravis,

I can understand where that comment comes across as profound, but personally it is no more to point than believing that God exists because diseases, death and war exist. Life, nature, the world... I do not personally feel that they prove the existence of God. I believe they prove the existence of life and the complexity of our universe.

Now if the ocean rose up and became the shape of God's face, or if a booming voice spoke to everyone at the same time, or if we saw this godly entity descend from the heavens to tell us all "hey, what the heck are you guys doing?" THAT proves the existence of God. But I suppose it is different for everyone... I believe the Christian God exists, but I do not believe that he is the only god or the supreme god. I believe he is one of many that we have envisioned into life.

So if someone were to ask me, "do you believe in God?" My answer would be "yes, I believe that the Christian God is one of many gods, but I do not worship him, because I do not believe that he is more superior than any other deity I believe exists."

I guess we were both typing at the same time there. Thank you very much for that lovely tribute. I have learned a lot from you since joining this site as I have from reading everyone's comments. ANd I hope we as a community can continue to share our thoughts and beliefs with each other

Hi again Devious. MANY good points there and I pretty much agree with everything you have just said. But just for funzies to put a wee spin on it I will put this to you...

I used to be an altar boy in my catholic upbringing, and one of the priests I worked with was a really cool guy and was open to conversation about this. So I asked him before, pretty much what you have said that If God is real then how come there is no evidence of it. His response has stayed with me to this day and intruiges me to the possibility of God. He said "Look around you. Look at the oceans, the forests, the planet teaming with life. Look at the wonders of the Universe... What more evidence do you need?"

Now based on what you know of me you know I am not preaching this. Just always stayed with me as an interesting thought

Lastly...I know my comments are getting dragged out here, lol...

Johntravis, I hope that you will share some of your thoughts and beliefs with us as you progress along your metaphysical journey. You are an incredibly wise and intuitive person, and I think you have a lot to offer this community both intellectually and spiritually.

Pjod, thanks again for the recommendation! I think I shall look this book up on Amazon and see if I can get a copy. I really love vividly described stories, and the premise sounds VERY promising. I need something new to read anyway. 😉

Redphx: I had the feeling you were somewhere around my age bracket. I guess that makes us two of the youngest "regulars" on this site!

And as far as the burden of proof is concerned, can I have faith in these gods/entities? Probably not. I cannot depend on them to make something happen or not happen in my life. They are consultants, if you will. We can ask them for the tools, but not to demand they do the work for us. I can have faith in asking them for advice and knowledge, but whether or not I take that advice or believe in the knowledge I am given is up to my discretion. Would you ask a stranger on the street to give you an answer to one of life's greatest questions? You could ask, but that does not mean that the answer you receive will be the right one. I know my views might sound a bit hypocritical, but I think what I am trying to say is I understand the concept of faith, but unless I feel something is real for myself in the context in which it is meant (IE the Christian God being the ultimate and only God) that is not something I can do. I believe and disbelieve in all gods and goddesses equally. I believe in them enough to feel they are real because we have made them real as a race, but I do not put so much faith into them that I will live my life around worshipping them. That is what I mean by blind faith... People who say "I am a Christian" and believe in God without ever questioning their own doctrines or truly understanding WHY they believe that way. I believe the way I do because I feel in my heart and my gut that it is correct, and the Christian God has never punished me for it so far as I can see. I canont believe that my soul would be in mortal peril for believing in other gods, because after all, how can a deity expect us to believe in it if it offers no proof of its existence?

Before I get distracted and address anything else, I would like to say thank you to Rook for responding in full to my comment. I appreciate your viewpoint and I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

I think what it comes down to is that I can agree with you on a lot of things, but this is the part I have a problem with:

"Faith: 1) belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof."

I personally cannot believe in much of anything that does not offer logical proof. The only subject I am sketchy on is that of ghosts and the paranormal: I believe in them because I have seen them, and others have seen them; there are photographs and EVPs and other scientific evidence of the existence of SOMETHING. Where it comes from, where it goes and why it's there is all speculation on our part. All we can do is try to theorize and come up with the best interpretation of something that is way over our heads.

With that said, I will share a small portion of my own beliefs...

I do believe that there is the potential for a higher power. I do pray to a deity that I feel is neither female nor male, but a force within myself that gives me strength when I need it. Perhaps it is just meditation or prayer without direction. That is fine, so long as it works for me. I do not seek to be saved, I do not worry for my eternal soul, and I do not believe in heaven and hell. I believe that spirits exist in everything around us and that when we die, we are reincarnated and returned to the cycle of life and death. I believe that the human condition is based solely around willpower... Whose willpower that is, I cannot say. Perhaps it's our own! But there is a force that drives us and it exists within the spirit of every living creature, be it plant, animal, insect or human. Everything in the world is connected by that force and we all share a part of it. It is not infinite but it fluctuates as beings in the world are born and die. It is like water... A conduit that carries us through the universe toward the ultimate goal of full and complete experience of life.

I realize I probably sound like some creepy hippie, and I am willing to accept that. 😉 But when I pray, I feel the strength I need channel from within me and the world around me. I do not feel the need to call upon God or the gods for anything except knowledge... I believe that such gods exist, but they do so because we have WILLED them to. We as a people believe in them so strongly that they are real for us when we need them to be. Maybe they are really just gathering points for parts of the human experience that we have not personally had yet. Maybe these entities or deities are channels for the collective consciousness. I do not know to be honest... But not knowing doesn't really scare me. I have confidence that I will learn as time goes on, and when I make the ultimate transition (inevitably leading to death) I will understand, and my spirit or willpower will return the place from where it came and become something new.

Now in my prayers I believe I have contacted those entities that we have named as our gods, including the Christian God. Unfortunately, I cannot have many dealings with that particular God because according to Christian doctrines, He does not really appreciate you worshipping other gods. So I leave that one alone and move on. I suppose what I am trying to say here is that I believe that EVERYONE is right in their religion, and yet some of those religions are also wrong. Since our willpower creates these deities, they exist. If I wanted to worship my toothbrush, it would become a god. However, I do not have the right to say it is the ONLY god, and that no one else should worship any god other than my toothbrush or else face the wrath of Hell.

THAT is where I have the problem.

That certainly does sound like an interesting read, and I might even check that one out myself.

Rook fair point about the God and Goddess of Wicca. I am new to the faith and have only just started reading about it (I have read 1 book), but I plan to explore it more as it seems like a good tool to help you on your way.

I'd be interested in hearing more from Redphx about what she has dicovered about reincarnation through projection. This is an area that fascinates me.

D/A you are quite correct in your comment too. How can we know good unless we have experienced bad. This ties in with my thought of we are here to experience everything, and throughout our many lives, we will experience everything... Good and bad

devious,
in Gary Jenning's "Aztec"...you follow the life of an Aztec named Mixtli, who is born just about 40 years before Cortez first visits the shores of Mexico. It is written in unbelievable detail... With maps of the Aztec empire to referance as you follow his journeys.
All battles and historical happenings are precise...
As Mixtli pleads with ruler Montecuzuma to wipe out the Spaninsh "visitors" before they become any threat to the empire.

Thanks zzsgranny for the welcome!

johntravis,

I'll take the Wicca comparison a step further...

Mother Earth, The Goddess... Those who practice Wicca hold her in high regard and often ask for her Guidance and or Aid.

If 'good seeds' (ones actions) are rewarded with aid/blessings/personal growth from the Goddess it is much like following the Commandments of God and receiving his Blessings.

You are correct that good attracts good, bad attracts bad... Or to put it more simply... Like attracts like... But this is something that applies in many things, not just 'personal belief systems'.

I hope that makes some sort of sense, or at least helps explain where I am 'coming from'.

As far a reincarnation goes... I personally believe in it... And it fits with my Churches teachings, or at least I can reconcile my belief in it with-in the Teachings of my Church. If anyone cares I'll explain this as well...

Respectfully,

Rook