Comments for Tour Of Jerusalem And Bethlehem: Page 6

That's the trouble with time difference... This conversation was motoring on while I was in snoozy town!

1st of all well done to everybody who posted such personal experiences. Being no stranger to tragedy myself it is good to get these things out!

Javelina - Thank you for your comment. I understand things can be said in the heat of the moment, so no harm done:)

Rook - An insightful comment from you as always, however I have one comment about it. While I find it interesting that you compared the 10 commandments to the wicca rule of threefold, I think it is a little bit different, as in my limited understanding of Wicca it is just about energy. Good energy attracts more good energy and bad energy attracts more bad energy. So there is no single entity that rewards or punishes. You kind of do it yourself. The Christian God acts as a referee or disciplinarian. If you are good He rewards you, if you are bad He punishes you.

Redphx - I have all the respect in the world for how you found your path. Trying out numerous faiths and making your own based on what you discover. I am trying to do something similar. I think being a former Catholic has instilled the desire for a God-like feature in my life, but also being a former Catholic has made me wary of the teachings of others, so I am more trying to figure out something myself. It is invaluable to hear others opinions in a place like this.

I like the reincarnation theory, and I hope it is correct. The idea that we get more than one shot at this is very appealing, mainly because I'm 30 now so have missed my chance to be a professional footballer which I'd like to make right in a potential next life.:)

Hello everybody... I go poking with a stick and look what happens... 😲. Thank you one and all for commenting and I hope I do not miss anybody with my reply.

First, thank you to all the well wishers that read the experience and have offered their condolences and other words of comfort.

Now DeviousAngel you have asked about Faith and 'why' people have it and why in some cases people seem to have it 'blindly' and I will address that... But first you asked about the following verse...

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them [any other gods]; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

This quote actually refers to 2 different chapters of the Bible, Exodus 20:5-6 and Deuteronomy 5:9-10 respectfully. Now these are both Old Testament Books. These are basically 'Church' teachings and the 'Lords' Commandments before the Birth of Christ. This is important to note because the 'tone' and 'teachings' change from before the Birth of Christ and after his Birth.

In the Old Testament it seems it's all, believe in ME and only ME or I'll kick your...BEEP...You have things like The Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah happening... But all that ends after Christ 'visits' the Earth and presents 'kinder, gentler' teachings that work with/support the 'Big 10'.

There are those who argue that this proves God does not exist, as 'He' teaches that he does not change and of course there is a change between Old and New Testament Teachings...

It is MY OPINION (and to some degree this is supported by my Churches teachings) That God is more like an Earthly Father (after all Bible teachings make it clear we were made in His image) and when he saw that an 'Absolute and Firm Hand' wasn't working as well as hoped he changed tactic's and created a 'Plan' (The Plan of Salvation) and sent Christ to 'implement' this New Plan.

(At this Point I wish my Experiences posted on our sister site could be published here)

As far as Faith goes... Well let's start with the definition of the word...

Faith: 1) belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof. 2) a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it. 3) belief in and devotion to God (or Goddess... Religious Choice depending) 4) a strongly held set of beliefs or principles. 5) allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something.

For me this ties into everything I have learned sense I took an active interest in such matters. My first Paranormal Experience was when I was about 8 years old and at 12 I broke with Organized Religion because the 'Minister' would 'Tell' the congregation what the Verses in the Bible meant and I would go home and understand them differently. So from the Age of 11/12 until the present time (I turn 44 this month) I have been studying and learning and what I have learned (have Faith in) most is that the basic teaching of every Major Religion is basically the same... Basically Ten Commandment type stuff... (It's funny how differently the commandments are translated between traditional Jewish and Catholic/Protestant translations but there is a different time and place for that.)

The Ten Commandments:

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother:
6) Thou shalt not kill.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife...

And Wiccan's, while many things differ one thing seems very certain.

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Couple this with the 3 Fold 'Law'...

"anything you sow, be it good or evil, will come back to you threefold, so always put good out there."

So harm no one and do 'good' and it will come back to you 3 fold (3 times as 'strong')...Hurt others and do 'evil' and receive the same 3 fold (3 times as 'strong')

Much simpler put than the 10 Commandments but when put it into practice is there much difference?

Now having summed things up so 'basically' it really makes one wonder why people except things 'Blindly' I'm a HUGE supporter of this verse from the Bible

Matthew 7:7-8 7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

This verse says it all. Just because a MAN says... And this Biblical Verse Means... (blah, blah, blah)... Doesn't hold water to me... Not when you can have Faith in Heavenly Father and ask Him what's right, what's wrong and What does this verse mean... But human nature tends to be that of wanting to be lead, being told what to do... Or being deceived into thinking/feeling/doing things a certain way.

Now my Church's basic teachings number 13 and are called Articles of Faith...

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisaical glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I know there are those who will knit pick some of the above 13 to bit's, I did not post them for the purpose of defending them, but as an illustration of how a Solo Practicing Wiccan came to Join an Organized Christian Church. (see number 7...)

For myself number 7 and number 13 sum things up very nicely.

I've prattled on enough for this post, I hope I was able to address some of your questions, as far as my Opinion and Understanding things go.

Respectfully,

Rook

Rook, I know I'm off the debate topic here, but I just read this story (You know how far behind I am in with these things) and it is a really beautifully tragic tale, if that makes sense, that you can take every bit of goodness from what must have been a truly heart breaking and saddening time in your life, and rather than focus on the loss, you cherish all that you have gained and simply seem to accept that things are just the way they are... You are a very strong and open hearted soul, I believe, to be able to do and go through the things you have and be the person that you are today 😊

Thank you for posting this and allowing me to see that real people, with real and true souls still do exist in the world ❤ 😁

Oh my gosh. Two sets of twins in a row! Did she use any fertility medication? That is amazing unless she was getting estrogen and progesterone before pregnancy then that would cause twins too. Of course she could just have extra estrogen anyway.

you are the same age as I am. I am an aquarius though. Good to have someone the same age as me. 😁

redphx,
I know where you are coming from. I do not know how my cousin and his wife take care of those midgets; especially having the older twins at 7, second set at 6, and my niece at 5. When I babysit them, I'm SOOOOOOOOO happy that I could sent them off at the end of the day.

redphx,
You are a good friend. I hope you stick by your friend, even if it is unbearable to be in the same room as her. As a friend, you can be there to only support her but it would have to be your friend that has to take the steps. I'm not going to say that I understand what she went though because nobody can understand that level of betrayal without experiencing it for themselves.

redphx - I just turned 25 this month. 😊 Year of the tiger, sign of the crab... And yes, I am a crabby cat. 😉

geetha, thanks for the kind words. I actually do have an 11 year old step-son so it is good. He is a very good kid ❤ I also have lots of animals. I love cats and I am content with having furry children. LOL. Yes not being able to have children did work out best for me. Even though I am good with older kids I really don't have the patience for little babies. It sounds a little harsh but I don't lie to myself. I wouldn't be very good with small children. I love my kitties tho!

Red,
I couldn't agree more. What she has endured, and that the she had no one to turn to, has taken away a part of her that she'll never be able to experience. Innocence and unconditional love should belong to every child. And when those were taken from her she lost that chance of just being a child. It's impossible to know how she copes with that nightmare, and my heart is aching for her now. Not only to have this horror visited upon her, but to have another parent throw the blame on God instead of her father, gave that poor girl nowhere to turn.

Jav

DA - you said that you were young. If you don't mind me asking how young are you. I am actually pretty young myself. ❤

redphx,
Thanks. Everybody is happier now. I'm sorry that you can't have any children and that you lost three kids. Losing one is bad enough, I don't know how you handled losing three. Like DeviousAngel said, you could only experience the good if you could compare it to the bad. I hope you have found you piece with where you are now. Have you thought about adoption? After experiencing, what the whole family went though with bring my niece, Sophie, I have decided that I will be adopting kids while having some of my own. A child could probably could use a mother like you.:)

Jav - my friend is dealing with it, slowly. She has post traumatic stress disorder and she is really afraid of men. She has had some relationships but she chooses men that abuse her. Instead of learning from this she has become bitter and cold. She has a chip on her shoulder and she is actually quite unpleasant to be around. I do understand her pain even though I can't relate to that level of hurt she's been through. It hurts her more to dwell on it. I try to tell her that living life so angry at the world is still giving her father the power. She is allowing him to control her life even now even though they don't speak. Letting go is a wonderful release. And even though she will never forget what he did she can still accept what happened and move on. Healing comes with time and sometimes it may take many lives for a soul to heal

Thanks geetha... Mine is always up on my profile. As soon as I get my thoughts and everything organized, I will send you an email and grill you for your thoughts. 😊

DeviousAngel,
Thank you for condolences. Mina is never far from our minds and her brothers and sister are made sure that they know of her. Plus, babysitting them keeps everybody busy to be sad; those kids could be crazy little manics.

I would gladly help you with your research. My email is geetha50 [at] gmail.com

As they say, good things come to those who wait. As painful as it is, I think sometimes we have to experience tragedy to truly appreciate when something incredible happens. How would we know what the "good" is without the "bad" to compare it to? I do not think that we can blame god or the gods anymore than we can blame the president or the prime minister or whatever when something bad happens. Things just happen and that's the way it goes. It is not what religion you subscribe to but your actions and the lessons you learn from life that define you as a person.

geetha - I am very pleased to hear that your cousin and his wife didn't give up and decided to have more children. Some people are truly lucky. I am not able to have kids and I have lost three children. But it is all a learning process and an experience that will always stay with my soul. Not just my human mind. And that is what is really for us to learn. What our soul experiences as we are here on Earth.

DA - yes reincarnation is a wonderful thing. If we mess up we can try try again. There is no limit to how many times we can come here. And this is how we get soul mates. People who we've had past lives with. My mother and I are soul mates. We've been together for at least three lives. In on life we were sisters and in another one I was the mother and she was the daughter. In soul years I am much older than she is. Though she likes to argue with me about that LOL

Red,
That has to be one of the most moving posts I've read in a long time. Thank you for sharing that, it touched me deeply.

Jav

PS How is your friend now?

redphx,
I understand that now. At the time, my niece died, I was really pissed off at the world because I knew how hard my cousin and his wife tried to have Mina. To see something so precious slip away within reach really got to me. But once my heart stopped hurting, my head and common sense kicked in and I realized that there is always a reason for something in this world and as human beings, many times we don't have the capability to understand it (or at least at the time of the event). We can only live and learn.:)

The funny thing is, I thought I (or someone in the family) should have been the one to comfort my cousin and his wife but it was my cousin's wife who did the comforting. Being from a strong catholic family (my cousin converted once they got married), she had her head on strong. She kept saying that there was a reason that the Lord took Mina and that He was going to give something bigger. Oh yeah, He did give something bigger; five kids with a span of three years is truly amazing. The doctor had told my cousin and his wife that having children would be hard after Mina and that it would be a danger to her life. I think it took me and some other people in my family to see the miracles this world has to offer.

johntravis,
I just re-read through the comments made, that I had reacted to and I owe you an apology for reacting so defensively. I hope you understand that it wasn't personal. It won't happen again.

Jav

geetha50, thank you very much for your interest in my research. 😊 I would be more than happy to listen to anything you might have to add about your own beliefs, or the beliefs of those you know. I would really like to get a feel for all sorts of different ideologies, including the various denominations of Christianity, because there are so many that it is difficult to decipher one from the other, though there are significant differences that set each one apart. Please feel free to email me any time you wish. I think what I might do is use my personal website to organize my information. When I get it together, I'll post the link up for everyone if that is okay with the moderators.

Also, I would like to share my condolences with the loss of your Mina... I think it is so sad when something happens to a child, especially an infant that has not yet had a chance to experience the world. However, I am with you in that it is good she is not suffering, and her parents were then gifted with two sets of healthy twins. I believe it was redphx that talked about the idea of reincarnation before, and I agree that part of our journey in life is to experience everything from both the negative and positive aspects so that we truly understand what it means to live and appreciate it.

jav - what are you talking about? Did I miss something?

It is interesting geetha how you said you want to blame god. That is something that a lot of people do that is completely unfounded and ridiculous. God doesn't do anything to anyone. We die when we die and people die at different times to learn a lesson or to teach a lesson. I had a friend who was sexually assulted by her father for 10 years. Her mother was finally told and her moms response to my friend was. "don't blame your dad, blame god" So my friend grew up hating god because she thought that he was the one who put her dad in her life to abuse her. This was seriously not the case. God doesn't manage us in such a way. We are all intertwined by karma. What we did in a past life we decide to come back and experience it in this life so we can learn lessons. Just like god doesn't cause someone to win a race or show feats of intelligance or strength. People do that on their own and it would be nice if they took some credit for their accomplishments.

johntravis28,
Your post just drilled in the head. Nice way of putting it.

DeviousAngel,
Some people are set in their ways. I haven't read all the comments from the beginning so I'm not going to accuse any of you of any wrong doing. When I was in college, my Organizational Behavior professor said something that kind of stuck with me. He said that he hated it when two people would be in the same office but if one of them had a question, instead of getting up and going to the person to ask the question, they would just email it to them. My professor's question was why would you put something on paper (or on screen) and take the change of the other person take it the wrong way. I think that applies here also. I know that we all can't meet face to face as we are from different countries and all but I kind of figured that if a person is going to comment on a site like this, they would have an open - mind. Like you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think Javenina took it to heart. You were right in stepping back; good job.

As for that research project you are doing, I'm interested in what you are doing and I would also like to help in anyway I can.

Redphx,
I second you on that. I believe religion shouldn't control your life but be base for your personal growth. I think I have become more of an open person because of it.

Rook,
I was on break and decided to read though some of the older stories and came a cross yours. Sorry, I kind of distracted with the other comments. But I remember reading your story at the time it was published and thinking, when I got the courage to sign up here, I will add your story to my favorites, but the stupid me, I forgot. I just added this to my favorites and also, I have added you as my favorite authors. My opinion of what you experienced is that you and your friend were in a holy place so you guys were more sensitive to your sixth sense (I don't know if I worded it right but I hope you understand). For what your friend experienced, I don't know what to say to that except, that it was you in another life time showing yourself to your friend. As for what happened to you, I believe it was your high power saying that Patricia Ruth was going to be alright and safe. I think He knew what Patricia Ruth was going to go though if she lived so He took her with him to be safe and then provided you with another child so you wouldn't have to continue in pain of losing a child. Although, I'm not a parent per Se, I have lots of nieces and nephews and they have a way of putting a smile on your face, even when they find so many ways to annoy you.:) One of my nieces was diagnosed with blood cancer and she died within six months of being born. Everyone was in tears, especially, my cousin and his wife. Mina had come to them after 10 years of trying to become pregnant. I had gone into shock myself because I was with Mina when she died. But I could tell you that she went with a smile on her face. On one side I wanted to hate God for taking my niece away from my cousin and his wife; it was like tagging a piece of candy on string, and then taking it away. On the other hand, I was happy that Mina wasn't in pain anymore. But the good side to it was that exactly one year later, my cousin's wife had twin boys and then a year after, they had another twin boys (this was actually happened by accident) and then my niece was adopted when her parents were killed in a car accident.

Anyways, sorry for babbling on but I wanted to say that miracles happen in weird, unexceptionable ways.

Wow! This has got to be the most pathetic example of pettiness I've witnessed on this site in a long time. I bear my soul about the horrors my mother endured at the hands of the Catholic church, and you go out of our way to bury the comments? Congratulations people, I certainly hope you got a lot of satisfaction from that display of charity.

Jav

Devious: I completely concur... Discussion is the only way to learn... And to teach, for that matter... I can totally understand your stance on the dogmas that some religions are based upon... And being an intelligent species (for the most part 😆) human kind will forever be questioning their existance and the means by which to make it comprehensible in their limited understanding of the universe and quest to become esoterical...

I consider myself pretty lucky that as a child my parents didn't hinder me with their own beliefs. They thought that I should make up my own mind. I was actually allowed to go with all my friends to their churches and see what I liked. I've been to catholic, morman, jewish, lutherin, and born again services. I've been to each ones bible groups too. When I was a little older I found my own way into witch craft as some other young girls do. But since it was my mothers way of life she started introducing me into her belief system. I formed a relgious outlook all my own and then as I got a little older into my early twenties is when I started to project and was shown the after life and how it works. I understand all religions and when they are done celebrated rather than required they are all very beautiful in their teachings. But I found that most of it is human interpretation rather than truth.

I found my own truth and I think that is most important. I believe that being a good person is what it really comes down to and what should be at the base of every religion. I love the hear other people's point of view and I really love sharing mine. If I can help anyone I will but I will never force my beliefs on someone to make them change. That is not what this life is about. I am happy that no one else is just like me and I am happy to find indiviudalism out there. Having herd of sheep isn't that great but that is what most relions base there numbers on.

zzsgranny: I absolutely agree. I do not feel that there is a pressing need within me to disprove others; my arguing is simply my way of communicating "look, this is something I disagree with. Please help me understand if I am misinterpreting it, or why YOU agree with it, and maybe by doing so you will change my mind." I think arguing is part of the path to enlightenment, and though it may seem hostile it can be done civilly.

I enjoy reading about religions as well... Though I'm not as well versed on any of them as you guys are, I have seen the one constant commonality in most and that is, one prominate being (God or god/goddess), and a profit/teacher of extremely high reverence...

I find it interesting that the three major world religions are based upon the same writings...

I have yet to find my niche in the world of "what religion are you?"...But, I like it that way...I'm comfortable taking what I see to be the truth for ME from other religious beliefs and doctrines... I feel that we should all find our own path, and not become subjected to one particular doctrine or creed simply because you're guilted into it...

Pjod: Welcome back!...You've been missed ❤

I think that would be good too. I am having email conversations with some of the posters but it would be good if everyone could see some of the comments. So we could have other opinions too.

I think we need a messageboard, where we can have all of these discussions together aside from the site so that we don't interrupt the flow of the other stories' comments.

DA - One thing that you will note is that the bible was written by man. I firmly believe that god wouldn't ever say..."follow me or die" that is how humans think and that is how they learned to control one another. Don't ever think the god would say such horrid things. Only people are that evil

Ok so we are supposed to be over here now. From what I am gathering 😕

Pjod,

Thank you for the recommendation! I will definitely check that out. I truly enjoy reading about the Aztec beliefs, especially the story of the creation of the world. The Aztec gods are very colorful and alluring.

On a side note, I had the immense pleasure of visiting the LA County Museum of Art and actually saw, up-close, pages from the Quran. I was able to enjoy a lot of paintings as well, depicting the angels, demons, apostles and Jesus. Regardless of my feelings on any particular religions, I do enjoy reading about them and studying the art that emerged from the following.

If anyone is ever in California, I definitely recommend visiting LACMA. It is an inexpensive way to spend at least two days exploring all of the incredible artwork of our world's cultures. They have art from all over the world and throughout the ages, from modern and contemporary art to ancient coins and weapons.

Rook,

Sorry, I just now saw your comment which was waaaaay down the page, almost on the second page, where you addressed me.

I think that is really awesome that you were able to take that tour. I sometimes wish I had taken the military path myself, when I was young. If I hadn't had the health problems I did, I would have had the greatest time exploring the world, even if it was for military purposes.

I also understand the point you have made, that the Bible was written in different times. However, the more it passes through revision by the hands of men, the more likely the message is to be blurred or distorted. Susan B. Anthony once said, "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." I believe that is very much true of many people's interpretation of the Bible. More often than not I find that people justify their actions with passages from the Bible in the same way that people who WANT to see ghosts will see them. Because the Bible was written by man and not by god, I believe that it is subject to too much flaw, and if you cannot credit the whole thing as truth it's difficult to credit ANY of it as truth.

But as you pointed out, I believe the flood really did happen because of the evidence that we have found today. That is something that I can grasp and understand because it makes sense.

There is a particular line that bothers me and I wonder if you help me out with this.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them [any other gods]; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

I personally would want nothing to do with a god that threatens to punish my children to the fourth generation for my actions or mistakes. How is that god's supposed limitless love and mercy? To me, that smacks of tyrranical, terrorist control. That is saying "worship me or suffer". It does not matter what kind of person or entity says that, I would cast them out equally. If the president or a teacher or my own mother told me that, I would want nothing to do with them. That says, "I will hurt your children and three generations of their children after for your disobedience."

I think the major problem is that going by the Bible, you are taught to love god out of fear. That is a pill that is impossible for me to swallow. Fear does not equal love.

deviousangel,
Have you read "Aztec" by Gary Jennings? It is an amazing book... Check it out.

zzsgranny, yes ma'am! My hands are tied, my lips are sealed, and good girl mode has been activated. 😉

johntravis,

That is amazing! I had not heard of that before, and that will definitely be on the list of religions for research. That is one of those incredible examples of religious hysteria and how it can really lead a culture down the wrong path. If you get some time, I would really suggest reading up on the native Aztec beliefs... It is truly something. The gods have very complicated names and the stories are deep and interesting. One source I found that is really good for doing research is Project Gutenberg. They have a lot of free ebooks that you can read (without a PDF reader!) with information on various religions. Some of the info might be outdated but it's a good source for information, anyway.

Http://gutenberg.org

They have books in several languages, too!

zzgranny - Agreed! And again, if my comments were offensive to anyone then I sincerely apologise. That was not my intent at all. I deeply respect and slightly envy anybody who finds comfort in religion. I wish I could find it too... I just can't

Devious - It seems like you have done far more research into this than I have, but one faith that grabbed my attention (and I will study) was that of the Myan tribes, who basically self destructed and dissappeared out of time based on their beliefs. When the rain stopped (climate change), instead of moving somewhere else, they continuously sacrificed more and more people to the rain god to make it rain again... When this (obviously) didn't work, they simply died out! Fascinating stuff

johntravis,

I also find it incredibly intriguing that some cultures have similar celebrations or beliefs in regions where communication, in ancient times, would have been entirely impossible. Is it coincidence, or is there some greater depth to it? I am especially fascinated in some of the more archaic religions, such as Egyptian and Mesopotamian polytheism. I have done some study already on Aztec polytheism, Native American shamanism, Shintoism, etc. It is truly fascinating to see the similarities between philosophies. When it comes down to it, I think the central belief of every religion is a force that one can compare onesself to, however blasphemous it may be to consider onesself worthy of comparison. Every deity is personified in a very human way, or else contain intermingled elements of humans and animals. I think many of the older religions grew from the need to have a strong central leadership to guide people in the right direction with their free will, rather than to take free will away and simply order them in one direction or another.

Jave: Sorry, I was just referee-ing...I thought it was possible that you'd misunderstood JohnTravis' post...

Everyone: That being said, let's keep the discussion above the belt... Rook is a very respectful poster, and has graciously allowed his thread to become the sounding board... I believe his intentions are to have an open, honest and RESPECTFUL discussion...

Let's all have enough respect for him to follow his lead... Thanks ❤

Devious,

That could be interesting. I do enjoy reading up about religions from an information point of view as to their origins and beliefs and like you said where they intersect. Like it seems that a few different faiths celebrate the same festivals! Some for different reasons, but the origin of which interests me. If I can help you with this at all then I would be delighted. You have my email:)

johntravis,

I think I am going to start putting together a bit of a collaborative essay or research paper (paper might be an underestated word...) with my fiance on various faiths. I really want to explore a lot of them unbiasedly, including some of the more controversial ones like voodoo and theistic Satanism, and I think I'm going to start looking around for a few people to interview about their beliefs. I think it would be interesting to find out all the different angles and see where they intersect. I am sure this has been done before, but I think it would be healthy for my own personal spiritual growth. There is such an immense spectrum of beliefs out there, and I think it would be very enlightening to get a glimpse of each of them.

Thank you for your input. I consider it valuable.

Jav,

I have come to understand that I will not get clear answers from you on anything I have asked, so I will leave it at that and move on.

Young though I may be, I am not a "kid" and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from referring to me as such. I doubt you would appreciate it if I referred to you as "old lady". Respect me and I will respect you, plain and simple. Best of luck to you and thanks for your time.

[at] Javelina

I sincerely apologise if I have unwittingly offended you, and I am sorry to hear about the troubles you and your family have had at the hands of the catholic church, but I never said that YOU had blind faith. I don't even know you and would never be so arrogant as to pigeon hole somebody I don't know. I just thought I was joining an open conversation about faith and beliefs.

I was talking in general terms about a lot of people (my own mother included) who DO just blindly follow without giving it a moments thought.

To all of you that have made a point of commenting on my last two posts... Please explain to me where I was abusive and argumentative. I just don't see it. And if you saw it that way, then maybe you should be asking yourselves why that is. If you have a problem with every single post I put up, then I have to think that the problem is not me at all.

Jav

[at] DeviousAngel Well said, someone finally got that out.

[at] Javelina DeviousAngel pretty much explained what I have seen from you on other posts "completely" accurately. It's you that seems to provoke debate in every story you comment on. (Okay, "every" story was perhaps an exageration, but it's certainly close to that amount).

And I do believe you should both take this converse to emails, since the venues chosen are highly inappropriate.

Rozalin

Jave: I don't want to speak or JohnTravis, but I think his comment was closer to your opinion than you think... I don't think he was calling anyone who's faithful a zealot... Sorry for butting in... 😊

Jav,

Your hostility is truly appalling. I am not really certain where it is coming from. You are the #1 antagonist when it comes to rudely telling people they are wrong, and yet that is your opinion and regardless of how it is presented you have a right to that opinion.

As johntravis mentioned, my aim was not to tear down anyone's faith. As I tried to reiterate, I was simply questioning your faith and trying to understand WHY you feel that way. Simply saying "this is what I believe, and there is no reason why, I just believe it" does not make sense to me and makes it difficult for me to understand people who have "faith". Faith without reason, to me, seems to be blind obedience.

I am sure you have your reasons just as everyone who believes in the Bible and in Jesus and so forth does. What I am trying to discern is what your reasons are. Since I drifted away from organized religions, I have had a hard time swallowing the concept of people wanting to be a part of them for anything but the community aspect. So am I telling you that you are wrong for believing what you do? NO. Get that out of your head right now. I am telling you "look, I understand WHAT you believe. Now I would like to understand the WHY."

No matter how abusive your comments may be to me Jav, I will continue to keep giving you what you truly do not deserve: my respect, and the right to speak your piece, regardless of how hostile it may be.

Oh, and just so we're clear, I have not been using other people's stories as an excuse to argue. I simply joined a discussion already in progress. If you want to take it to one of my stories, I do not really care to be honest with you. I have openly offered you the opportunity to email me at any time, and my email is always on my profile, but you continue to insist on dragging it out here. So be it, I am simply honoring the venue that you seem to feel most comfortable with.

[at] johntravis,
You see, we could have gone in a completely opposite direction once the church pulled that nonsense on my family. But my mother, in her wisdom, wouldn't allow it. We moved on, found another church, and left that pain behind us. And do you know why? Because what had been done, was done in ignorance and my mother knew it. She wouldn't condemn God for what man did to her. How stupid is that?

Jav

I figured I might aswell way in with my two cents. I was reading the comments on the other story, and decided to accept rook's invitation to thrash it out here. I was raised a catholic in Ireland, but I, like others, as we got older and saw the atrocities committed by the church questioned our faith in what we are told by these people. I have been reading D.A. And Javelina's comments about faith and here is my opinion. Everybody is entitled to have faith in whatever they want and not be told that they are wrong. And I don't think that is what D.A. Was trying to do. She mentioned a quote that I love about BLIND faith and I do agree. I think faith is more enjoyed when it is something that comes from within you instead of what is drilled into you at school. Like for example I have faith that there is some kind of higher power or God if you will, but over the years I think that power and greed COULD have distorted any message that a Jesus type person came to deliver. Like take the "Virgin Mary" for example. The word virgin has been adopted to mean having never had sex. Virgin also just means young. So could have been referring to a young girl.

We presume that God is a male because it's referred to as He in the bible. But as far as I am aware the word He is a derivative from some hebrew word meaning power from above and is not neccessarily a description of gender. I am not certain of this... I was just told before.

On the argument that everything is explainable by science, then if indeed there is an all powerful creator then it stands to reason that He also created all the tools used in science aswell. But as D.A. Said it also means He would have created Human intelligence, and I think if God is real and is to be found then it is more of a testament to Him to find him using the tools and abilities he gave you instead of just taking somebody's word for it.

But my view of all religions is that it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, if a person gets inner peace and happiness from their religion be it catholic, protestant, Wicca or pastafarianism then that is all that really matters.

Rook,
My apologies for the comment left on this thread to D/A. However, I was not going to comment back to her on the thread we'd all decided to move over here to continue. It may sound a bit confusing, but I do have my reasons. I'll trust you to understand those for now.
You put forth a question, to which I offered up an answer (?). If my answer wasn't what you were looking for, just say so. Perhaps I misunderstood the question?

Jav

Wow I 'open' up one of my stories so that certain 'things' can be talked about... An experience of mine that seems an appropriate place to have such discussion and debate on... Controversial topics and... Nothing Happens...

I must say I'm surprised, I posted My Opinion concerning a couple of the points that have been brought up and while a couple of people have posted there has been no debate... No real discussion.

I even asked a couple of direct questions of people and one favor, still no reply here, yet those individuals have seen fit to post on other experiences...Hummmm...makes one wonder, it sure does...

Respectfully,

Rook

DeviousAngel,
Firstly, the conversation has been moved to a more appropriate venue. And though you're becoming known for taking a crap on as many pages as possible, I refuse to join you in this activity.
Also, your continued use of other peoples threads for the sole purpose of baiting others into confrontations is past the point of interesting and moved right into boring really.
What is it that makes you so insecure in your own convictions, that you feel you must provoke a fist fight of words with those who could care less what you think of them? You've made it very obvious how you feel about me and a few others. But apparently that isn't good enough.
Well, sorry to disappoint you dear, but I've no interest in playing your schoolyard games. And though I'm sure this won't stop your little quest from continuing, I am confident that you are causing damage only to yourself. Good luck kid. And I mean that.

Jav

Rook,
It wouldn't have anything to do with...say, maybe a Led Zeplin song title?

Jav

Jav,

You don't have to be 'ubber religious' to believe Jesus was a historical figure and that he was crucified by the Romans and that marked a turning point in history.

Much of the old was replaced by new belief systems and there was a major paradigm shift between Jesus Muhammad and their teachings. Islam and Christianity have 'grown up' together (near enough)... (Figure Year 1 as the Birth of Christ... 33AD as his death and then the year 610AD when Muhammad was visited by the Angel Gabriel... Has anyone ever stopped to think of the Historical, Social and Political overtones that in and of itself has? Of course if you are Religious these things mean something more to you... But taken from a pure...'this person taught that...' point of view major changes resulted... In the case of Jesus a major Monotheistic Religion was 'altered' and the believers went on to Convert the Roman Empire. Then Muhammad (visited in 610AD and began teaching around 622 AD) From the 'founding' of these two Religions and the Teaching of Their Prophets Empires have been Lost or Founded based on the beliefs of followers of either.

What do the teaching of either contain that cause so many people to 'believe' to the point of zelotism? (new word?)

Just asking... (insert evil laugh here...😲)

Respectfully,

Rook

Rook,
It seems these days people have a misunderstanding of the statement "He died for our sins". I believe that's where they get lost. Knowing it and understanding what it really means have become strangers in the conversation.

Jav

Let's start with 2 days ago... (from another experience)

Shini stated some interesting things about the Old Testament... (quoted to try and avoid misunderstanding...)

"I do have to agree with Red and say that I think a few things from the Bible, (Jonah and the Whale, The Flood) are more than likely metaphorical, or perhaps the people who took recordings did what any other ancient, structured religion did and probably embellished the truth of a situation, due to lack of adequate research, at that given time period.

I also think that Jesus was one of the many philosophical greats. As you can tell by skimming the Bible, Old Testament through New Testament, Jesus was sort of a "revolutionary", as he seemed to replace Old Testament ideas with those found in the New Testament. This is probably how he gained some "infamy" with certain groups of people.

I also have to point out something that Lou mentions... If the whole Bible is God's Word, then care to take a look at Leviticus. It clearly states that a man can have supremacy over another, in the form of slavery. A man can also sell his daughter into slavery.

Leviticus 25:44- Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids- King James Bible.

^An example of general slavery.

Exodus 21:7- And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do- King James Bible.

^Not only is this an example of slavery being allowed, but it also is an example of females being inferior to males."

Very good points... So let's see if I can address them...

You mention at the start of your comment that you feel some of the stories are metaphorical and or elaborated upon... Which could very well be the case... But in the case of the Flood... To many different Cultures and Religions have a story concerning a Great Flood... There is even physical evidence that one may have occurred... A Flood that devastated the 'KNOWN WORLD' at the time that it happened. To many times people take the stories from the Bible out of their Historical Time and apply them to what we understand to be World to be in Mondern Times.

As far as the 'slavery rules'...after the Coming of Christ those rules were changed and all who believed in Him could have their sins washed away and return to the Kingdom of Heaven. Basically with his coming a new 'Rule Book' was published. 😲

You also made a point by using Leviticus 21:18-21 as your reference... Again I must point out historical context... Back in the day the people were WAY more superstitious than we are in Modern times, they did not understand disease, deformities and the such as we do today... They thought these things were 'evil' sent to 'mark sinners'. Again After Christ came a 'new rule book' came into play.

Jav,

I like you comment concerning the Ten Commandments...

"The Ten Commandments are another example of oral and written history. With one distinction; when deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls they found the Ten Commandments to have stayed nearly perfect when compared to the Old Testament version." some basic 'rules' did not change after Christ visited...

Red,

I like your comment about wanting to see those Vatican Records. I've had a tour of the Vatican... Given by the Swiss Guard in exchange for Tours of the ship I was stationed on while in the Navy... This was behind the scenes... Not the 'Here is Vatican Square, there is the Balcony that the Pope gives his addresses from... No ours was a stroll through the Gardens, a look at the real 'spot' where the first Christan died in Rome, and no it's not the large pillar out in the square... Well it is, but that was moved from a parking lot round 'the back'...one of the things they showed us was the Library area... We stood in a parking lot that was about as wide as a soccer field and was 250 yards long, 4 stories tall and the guards said it was full of books, parchments and historical records that were slowly being translated and 'gone through'. It boggled my mind to even try and think what a Library that size could hold.

DA,

Interesting point about the game 'telephone' and it's well made... However if you believe in a 'God' that Created the Earth and all Life on it it's an easy step to believe that he caused one of his creations to become pregnant with out any sort of intercourse being needed... However your point your between 'pure' and 'virgin' is well taken and falls right into your statment about the game 'telephone', somewhere along the line as the story was passed down maybe 'pure' was 'twisted' into 'virgin'. 😉

So here we are and (hopefully 😁) away we go.

Respectfully,

Rook

The pleasure is mine Rook,
I do wish people would come and talk here and learn more about each other. That would really help everyone to come along with everybody. I did a course in South Africa called-Cultural diversity and it helps a lot to understand other cultures. I wish people would not take everything so personal, because everybody should respect every ones believes AND disbelieves without fighting.

What I experience on this site is that certain individuals is just out to attach without even asking or thinking why did you say that or why do you feel that way about certain stories that is posted here. In my opinion should think before they just through their toys out of their cots. Sorry to say that, but we are supposed to be grownups having conversations here about what we read. I know towards others they feel it was wrong of me to say I hate the devil, but I do. Doesn't it give me the right to say so? I don't jump on peoples' heads when they hate Christians because for me it's again the way they feel and I respect that. I take it like-what the heck that is the way they feel.

To some stories I read I can just say I will not waste my time if I realise that I cannot offer any help, and if I see the person is just wasting every bodies time because of no attempt done to give feedback or let the suggestions given by readers to grow beard. Someone who believes a problem can be solved tend to become busy solving it without excuses.
I am very busy this week, but I will be back, and thanks Rook that you give the opportunity on your page to talk about certain issues I wish people could just join in and say how they feel about the politics going on in YGS without fighting ext. Like Rook said now is the time to speak out, in a civilised way about how you feel. Nobody is perfect and without stupidity there can be no wisdom. No one of us can say we know everything, because we learn each day something new. We can all learn from each other without sticking a nose high up. I know some of you think I'm crazy, but I will stay plain old crazy Trix, and nothing will change that. I apologise if I ever offended anyone on this site. People tend to struggle on how to understand me, even my husband do. Sorry for that. If anyone does have a problem with me, now is the time to raise your voice. I am from South Africa, but it doesn't mean that I'm that different from you, because we are all human beings placed on this earth by a higher power. Take care. Trix.

❤

Trix Thank You for your comment. 😁

Now I must admit that I am quite surprised that only two individuals have made comments on this. As heated as things were getting I thought that many people would 'leap' on the chance to voice their opinion on an experience that was made available to them for that purpose. Here is your chance, 'sing' out. Please keep it civil and polite, but 'sing' out, let's hear your opinions.

Jitow,

I ask once again for you to post your findings from the archives as I do not have the time to invest in a complete search of them. I still contend that sense I joined (Oct 2008) I have not seen much more than brief thank you's for the advice given, but not very many detailed accounts of just which advice actually helped. So, please 'educate' me. Show me your findings don't just tell 'us' that a search of the archives proves your point out.

Respectfully,

Rook

Hi Rook...I'm here. First I want to say that I'm very sorry about your little girl... That made your experience very sad. What happened back there in Jerusalem is amazing with the vision you had and your friend that saw you with that ancient clothes. I wish I could visit Jerusalem. It must be amazing to witness the place Christ was born. It is so difficult sometimes to understand these kinds of messages that definitely come from a higher power. I'm happy God blessed you with three beautiful other children though Patrica Ruth will always have that place in your hearts.

You addressed us on the subject about religion also, I fully agree with you on every word you said. From my point of view you will be judged by God one day not by not obeying this law or that law, going to this church or that church, but what is going on in your heart. Please I don't want anyone to take offense about how I feel. I believe no law is going to get you in Heaven if your heart is full of evil things like hatred, jealousy ext. It's not about who you are. It's about WHAT you are.

Another thing I would like to address is the fact that I believe like Rook that everybody has free will given by God, and that includes on how we feel about certain things. We are from the same species, same planet Earth, and all human created by God never less our different believes and outlook on life. That makes NO ONE BETTER THAN THE OTHER. We are all going to die some day, and going the same route to the spirit world. We choose our own destiny through life, and should not be dominated by any human being to change the way we feel about that. Take care. Trix.
❤

Jitow,

Thank you for the interjection... I just find it interesting that it was on a 'debate' that seemed to have 'run it's course' and not on the 'new one' I was attempting to draw away from an experience that it was doing 'no good' on. So... Here it is, an experience and and invitation. Let's discuss these things... Unless the Mods shut this thread down, this is the place to have your say and receive feed back or hear counter points. Open and Honest Debate... Here is the place and if you have time so do I and I'm sure there are others who would love to add to the discussion.

Respectfully,

Rook

I was just interjecting, did not agree or disagrre with anyones post, just posting on a particular one of the issues raised.

Jitow,

I find it very interesting that you do not address my most recent comment, but drop back to the previous debate that was being conducted here on this experience.

Obviously I seem to agree with you on the point that it doesn't matter what day Fellowship occurs on as no particular day in (on) our modern Calenders is ever referred to in Scripture.

Having said that, if this day of fellowship happens to promote 'false doctrine' or a 'warped' version of Heavenly Fathers Truth then it's all for naught anyway.

So my question to you is this...

"How do you know which 'teachings' are Heavenly Fathers Truth? Which Church (Faith/Denomination) has all the 'Answers' as far as they have been reviled to Mankind?

Respectfully,

Rook

PS,

One other question:

By not responding to my 'simplified' version of the 'Casting Out' does that mean you agree with it?

😁

I would like to interject on the discussion of the Sabbath. Unless you are Jewish, getting hung up on which day is the Sabath is something that satan likes for people to do because it is another law that distracts people from living the life of love that Christ has intended for them. It is part of the old testament covanent that God has with His chosen people Israel. The Law, including the 10 commandments were put in place by God for several reasons. To reveal sin to His people, to show that there was no way possible that man could live perfectly by the law thus he had no way of saving himself, to forshadow the coming of Christ and the new covanent or the Blood covanent. See Christians, deffine as someone who believes that Christ is who He says that He is and that have surrendered their will to His will and try to live a life like Christ and when they cannot it is the sacrifice of Christ that allows them to be for given, if they ask Him. Christ did not come to abolish the law, He came to fulfill it. If you are a Christian then you are not subject to the law, if you follow Christ and love Him, then you have no need for the law because you are obedient to Him out of your love for Him and His love for you. So, today, in reallity it does not make a hill of beans when we observe the Sabbath. If you love God through His son Jesus, you can worship God 24/7 from anywhere that you are. God does mean for us to fellowship with other Christians because He uses that as a way to strengthen us and in order for us to carry out His good workon earth. So do not get caught up in the law, like is the Sabbath on Sunday or Monday, that rule is for practicing orthodox Jews who are fulfilling their covenent with God. If you are a Christian you will not go to hell for going to church on Saturday or Sunday, but if you cahnge anything about the Gospel of Christ then you are playing with fire. Christians do not live by the law but by our faith in Christ and God's infinite grace and mercy and by accepting the once for all perfect sacrifice and ressurrection of Christ. Long story short, what day yopu go to church has nothing to do with pleasing God unless you are a practicing Orthodox Jew.

Here we go again, on to one of my experiences so that progress may be made on others and interesting debate may continue to take place... Where to start... Where to start...

Let's start here... We are all different, come from different background, belief systems and cultures. Let's try and remember that and 'play nice'.

Now a few people have mentioned Angel's and such... Free Will and how we have it and Angel's do as well... And of course Lucifer (Satan...the Devil...ect...ect...) has been mentioned...Here's the 'TEACHING' I've come to 'FEEL' hits the closest to the 'TRUTH'...mind you this is my opinion but let's see if it makes sense to anybody...

Heavenly Father looks upon his creation and wishes to provide a way for the souls (spirits...life force...) to return and be with Him. He turns to His Angels and with a plan in mind asks this question... 'Which of you will go down in My Name and Lead those earth bound Spirits back here to be with Us. Lucifer, Angel of Light stepped forward and said...'I will go and lead them all back to You, not a single one shall be allowed to deviate nor forget where they came from or to Whom they owe their Creation to.' Heavenly Father thought upon this and said, 'That is well and good but what of their free will that I have given them?' Lucifer replied...'You wish them to return, I will ensure all do so, free will or not.' This did not please Heavenly Father so he Turned and asked another of his Angels 'What would you do?' This Angel replied 'Thy will be done Father'.

If one follows this story all the way through it leads to Lucifer being cast out of Heaven... With 1/3 of the Angels (Heavenly Host)... Now Lucifer and Heavenly Father are at odds... Lucifer feels that the 'lesser spirits' should not have Free Will and seeks to subjugate them, the 1/3 of the Host that 'supported' Lucifer have become what is known as 'Demons' and they all seek to subdue 'mankind's' free will and by doing so 'enslave' their spirits for eternity...

Now that of course is MY OPINION but I think and feel it makes a good deal of sense after much research and soul searching. (just check my profile...I've been everything from Solo Practitioner to current Priesthood Holder and Teacher for the Church I belong to. Started when I was 12 and I'm about to turn 44.)

As far as other 'Religions or Belief Systems go', those that promote dominance, pain, and loss of free will are 'Evil'. Those that promote free will, gentleness, and peace are 'Holy'. Each has a 'piece' of the puzzle and if they promote 'good will' unto mankind then they lead towards 'Heaven'. The others... Well you can guess...

It's this 'belief' of mine that leads me to say my 'Shield' is devoid of any 'Religious' attachments. If your Pagan, insert music, prayers to the deity of your choice. If your Christian, insert prayers to Heavenly Father and/or Hymns of your choice. It even works with just a strong belief in yourself and Positive Energy.

So, the floor is open... Keep it respectful and let's see what everyone has to say...

Respectfully,

Rook

Zalwang,

What does Daniel 7:23-25 have to do with my question? Let me quote myself...

"Where in the Scriptures does it say which day of our 'Modern Calender' is the Seventh Day?"

As far as this comment from you...

"And that myth about Constantine is not just a myth it happened in 321 A.D."

This was the Council of Nicaea... And I believe I covered just what they 'did' during that meeting... But let me quote the quote that I used myself concerning that event (this is a quote from a 'letter' from the Council Itself)...

""We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the beginning. ("The Synodal Letter" from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 2, vol. XIV) "".

If you had bothered to read my comment that contained that in the first place you would understand the point I was trying to make.

So answer my questions, don't just tell me I'm wrong. Don't present a 'new topic' to hide behind because you do not have a reply/counter point to the 'answers' I have made.

Respectfully,

Rook

Well I can show you one thing
Daniel 7:23-25
23 "Thus he said: 'As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings. 25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time.
Oh yeah the fourth beast is Rome. And that myth about Constantine is not just a myth it happened in 321 A.D.
Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
It is true that they gathered on the first day of the week that is on sunday but there is nothing said about that they were keeping sabbath on that day.
It is all written in bible just read it and study it for once.

Zalwang,

"And on the Seventh Day He Rested."

This is the day that is the Sabbath Day. I won't question that... Heck I've read the Scriptures that 'prove your point'. The thing is and I must ask you this question...

Where in the Scriptures does it say which day of our 'Modern Calender' is the Seventh Day?

Most Christians keep 'Sunday' as their Sabbath Day... As this is commonly accepted as the Seventh Day of the week... A week starting on Monday and ending on Sunday.

For the Jews the Sabbath Runs from Friday night until 3 stars appear in the sky on Saturday night.

For Muslims it is Fridays... Observed at the noon Prayer...

So Quote me some Scripture Sabbath School Teacher... Show me... Chapter and Verse just which day is the Seventh Day... The Day of the Lord... The Day of Rest and Remembrance.

Respectfully,

Rook

To all concerned,
Here's the deal, as I see it anyway. And since I'm half blind and full on crazy I don't know how relevant this will sound.
Our little troll is serving (or attempting to) as a distraction. Trying to keep Rook here, where we love to have him, but where THEY want him to stay. Mystery? Not really. Just the trolls from the psychic site, they want to be rid of Rook because he keeps it sane over there, and they don't like sanity. No big mystery at all. Just more finger paints.

Jav

OK.There is this thing then they-humans decided to move God's holy day. Who gave them premission? If God didn't do it then who did? Basically if you are keeping sunday as a sabbath then it is violation of God's fourht commandment,isn't it?
There is my true answer
Ezekiel 20:20 and hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am Jehovah your God.
His sabbath not humans sabbath, His day not sun day.

Time to feed the troll...

Zalwang,

Council of Nicea... That is what is important when it comes to 'who changed the sabbath.'

The Council was trying to bring uniformity to the early church and they addressed the question what was best, to observe Passover on Nisan 14, the day the Jews celebrated it, no matter which day of the week it fell on. Or whether to observe it on the Sunday nearest Nisan 14. This is important because Christians had been meeting on Sunday since the first century. Long before the days of Constantine.

The descided it should be on Sunday... The Lord's day. It was a tradition with the early churches not to kneel on Sunday because it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead. Thus, it was to be a day of celebration, and they did not kneel or fast on this day. This concerened Passover only... Here is a quote from the Conuncil...

"We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the beginning. ("The Synodal Letter" from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 2, vol. XIV) "

The only decision the Council of Nicea made about Sunday was that Passover would be celebrated on the Sunday nearest Nisan 14, rather than on Nisan 14 itself. The idea that Constantine and the Council of Nicea changed the Sabbath to Sunday from Saturday is simply a myth.

Now, I've been very polite and played your game... Return the favor...you've been asked many questions, go back over the comments, find them and answer them...

Or don't, I'm curious as to your answers, but really could care less if you chose to address them at this point. Take care...

If anyone else should care to comment, please do, I have enjoyed this thread think it bears futher conversation.

Respectfully,

Rook

bacchaegrl: That is good smelling men! 😆 thought I might clear that up for you lol. 😁

Oh my, I really can't keep up with you guys sometimes. I leave for a few hours and you're talking about smelly men, the man who made me a comedy writer, Mel Brooks, oh, and Zalwang is back; making less sense to me than ever. Thanks for the encouragement, Jav, and the friendship. I don't know if I'm ready for your inside jokes. Maybe I should be more diligent in my reading.

Jav,
We've always been too smart for our own good...haven't we? As far as reading your mind... Probably more of a "birds of a feather" thing.;)

Speaking of birds, Zal, are you appropriately named?

Lou

Zalwang,
Yes homework, as in "school project"? You ask a lot but never give. Which leads me to believe you are hear for the answers you couldn't find on your own.

Jav

Lou.
Either you're reading my mind or we're just too smart for our own good. But yes, this is either a case where he can't answer himself or just stalling the inevitable. Either way, it still doesn't give anything to the conversation, only takes. Which makes it a thief,

Jav

xD homework? It is his homework not mine. I already know the answer.

Lou,

Thanks for the smile... And your right, I may be 'to' wrapped up in this.

Coconut Cream Pie huh...

Lets see... First you put the lime in the coconut and you shake it all up... 😲

Respectfully,

Rook

Rook,
While you are researching, could you find me a good recipe for coconut creme pie? I admire your passion and spirit, but this non-human is using you to answer his theology homework.
I'm pretty sure Sabbath was changed because Ronnie James Dio used to like to stay up late on Friday nights.

Lou

Zalwang,

I'm wrong? This is your argument to prove it?

"bible doesn't say then Peter was pope."

Well, your right here... A 'POPE' is never mentioned in the Bible... Old or New Testament (at least I don't remember it being in either)... That being said I didn't write that Peter was Pope... What I wrote was... Let me quote myself...

"It referred to Saint Peter, leader of the Early Christian Church and regarded as the First Pope by the Catholic Church."

The Bible DOES refer to Peter being an Early Leader of the Church...It's the Catholic's that consider him as the FIRST POPE... Not scripture.

Please pay attention to details... Now you ask...

"why did Constantine change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?"

This one will require some research... Please stand by.

Respectfully,

Rook

First of all your wrong again I didn't tell you guys about this because you wouldn't know. There is such thing as internet after all where to check it out. Second bible doesn't say then Peter was pope. And I can't seem to understand why did Constantine change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

Zalwang,

Vicarius filii dei...Huh...did you pick this because you think no one here will understand what you are talking about... To bad... I know this one and some of the Controversy/Contention that goes with it...

Anyway here it goes...

The term Vicarius Filii Dei translates something like this... Vicar or Representative (Viceregent) of the Son of God. A phrase first used in the medieval writing 'Donation of Constantine.' It referred to Saint Peter, leader of the Early Christian Church and regarded as the First Pope by the Catholic Church.

There are other Faiths that claim it Stands for 666, the number of the beast... They work it out like this...

VICARIVS FILII DEI = 5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666, where 'U' is taken as 'V' and the letters A,R,S,F AND E are disregarded.

One 'Church' goes so far as to say this is on the Pontifical Crown...

In jeweled letters, this title: "Vicarius Filii Dei," "Viceregent of the Son of God;" the numerical value of which title is just six hundred and sixty-six The most plausible supposition we have ever seen on this point is that here we find the number in question. It is the number of the beast, the papacy; it is the number of his name, for he adopts it as his distinctive title; it is the number of a man, for he who bears it is the "man of sin.

To me this is a stretch as letters must be 'dropped' from the words in order for the numerical value to 'show through'.

Of course the Catholic's claim there is no evidence of any Papal Crown ever having such an inscription. It isn't even worn in 'modern times. It hasn't been worn sense Pope John Paul 1st.

Any thing else you wish to discuss?

Respectfully,

Rook

So you guys want to talk. Ok let's talk about Vicarius filii dei.

Hahaha Rook that's hilarious mate the ol men in tights spinoff lol, was actually a funny movie in a cheesy way! 😆

Yeh I aint going nowhere near white musk might not ever come back! Cant afford my name to change anymore then it already has these last few months lol.

was thinking more like~
I will survive, or
I am what I am
Or even I'm comming out!

O.M.G FREAK OUT!
IM COMMING OUT JUST STARTED PLAYING ON RADIO!

new one on me zalwang they do soap on a rope lol
And shaving cream too!?
Had to look hard at the picture on bottle, thought was something else other than a saddle ooops lol

taz,

Why O' why do I here this song in the background...

"We're men, we're men in tights.
We roam around the forest looking for fights.
We're men, we're men in tights.
We rob from the rich and give to the poor, that's right!
We may look like sissies, but watch what you say or else we'll put out your lights!
We're men, we're men in tights,
Always on guard defending the people's rights."

hmmm thinking pracilla...
Falisha, drugged up...
Cooper pedy...
Map of tazmania...
Maybe not good idea!
Unless you got your own bob or bernadette?
Stick to the butch stuff...
DONT TRY WHITE MUSK!
Would hate to hear bro darkness now sis sun beam
😲 😆 😆

Zalwang,

I see you your still here... Posting away and yet avoiding my questions/comments...

I thought we were going to have a good old fashoned debate but you keep stepping away from the podium. 😢 Come on now... Just respond to my questions or respond to my experience or have a rebutal to any of my comments, anything to show your intrested...

Taz/DARKNESS... I'm a bit 'Old School' here but my ex-wife, her best friend and my current wife like how 'English Leather' smells on me... It's not 'pricey' but when something works for you... 😁

Respectfully,

Rook

Yeh don't think that would go to well round a barbie with the boys eh lol! 😆

to be honest only put butch for your sake lol
Would hate to have you smelling like some queen round the barbie lmao

Yeh excellant mate will have to have a go of that it I think! Pushing yourself to the limit there Taz eh lol, don't over do it champ! 😁

thats the one!
About

thats right been long night 3/4 of mind gave up and gone to sleep about hour ago last 1/4 is holding on to coffee cup for dear life lol

This is it yeh?

Http://au.strawberrynet.com/mens-fragrances/cerruti/cerruti-1881-fraicheur-d-eau-eau/48444/

Yeh I have seen that 1 I will put it on my list buddy! I gather Auds means perhaps Eau De Toilette Spray am I right? Lol

Seeya Jav speak soon! 😊

ok jav catch you later enjoy your programs don't get freaked out 😆